Sirius' death (was: Dept of Mysteries Veil Room)

[mhbobbin]

No: HPFGUIDX 114426

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Julia" <jolka55 at p...> wrote:
> 
> Aura said:
> 
> > All we have is circumstantial evidence: characters have said 
that Sirius  is dead, but no one saw a body and no one specifically 
said what that veil was. All other info about his fate was 
(deliberatly) misleading. If JKR wanted to bring him back (which I 
don't see as very likely, but for the sake of argument, cuz that's 
what we live off of on this group), all she would have to say is 
that Dumbledore and Lupin were wrong. It isn't lying about death to 
say that characters were wrong. Lying about death> would be bringing 
back Cedric. 
 
> Julia:
> Yes... I would really love to believe that she will someday bring 
him back but  I'm afraid to say that it will never gonna happen! IMO 
the Sirius' death  represents JKR's mother's death. It's normal that 
the writer wrtites about things s/he knows - it's some kind of 
dealing with it. So if in the real life JKR's  mother died and she 
didn't come back after a month or two we can be almost  sure that 
Sirius won't come back either. It's that JKR know how to write about 
Harry's feeling after his loss because they are the same as her. She 
won't  bring Sirius back because it's not how the world works and 
she knows it! And  besides this loss will have a strong impact on 
Harry and it will help him to  mature - in the same way it helped 
JKR...

mhbobbin:
With the disclaimer that this discussion will never be resolved till 
Sirius comes back, or hasn't, by the time of the last page of the 
last book.

We often fall back to the argument that JKR wouldn't write something 
because blah blah blah. We all do it related to a variety of 
theories. It may be a good argument, as Julia makes above, and many 
others have made as well, but it is not definitive. For example, in 
this argument --that it is important for JKR personally, that she's 
working through her mother's death and the process will help Harry 
etc.--can also be argued that she's indulging in a fantasy of what 
she would like to happen instead. While her experience informs her 
writing, it can inform it either way, IMO.

I look to the primary argument for theories on Sirius  being hidden 
in the story, not in the author's story, which I would see as a 
secondary argument. One that can be made, nevertheless.

We know  few wizards know what goes on in the Dept of Mysteries. So 
Lupin and DD don't necessarily have specific knowlege of the Veil. I 
would think, at the very least, that we will learn something about 
it.

I don't think Nearly Headless Nick's discussion of death with Harry 
is necessarily informed either. His purpose is to move him to 
acceptance of Sirius' death. NHN is the only character outside the 
Order or the group of kids who went with Harry who mentions Sirius' 
death.  (It's not written in the Daily Prophet--and as Sirius is the 
Most Wanted Criminal up to that point, if DD had informed Fudge, one 
would expect the Daily Prophet to report it.) My point here is that 
NHN has likely been briefed by someone, likely DD, in anticpation 
that Harry will seek him out for questioning.

IMO,  Harry is going to seek greater knowlege of the Veil, either in 
Book 6 or 7, and go Beyond the Veil to retrieve Sirius. As 
mentioned, there is no body, and the death is deliberately 
ambiguous. Falling back on a secondary argument, JKR had many 
choices of how to kill off this character and chose this way.

JKR draws on Classical Mythology, and she's given us an entrance to 
the world beyond, a three-headed dog that Harry knows how to get by--
one from a Greek chappie, and pomengranate that is being added 
incorrectly to a potion. Why sow these seeds?   Anyway, given the 
ambiguity around this particular death, I think Harry is going to 
make this journey. Does he return with Sirius?  In Classical 
mythology there is usually some bargain struck, and it often goes 
wrong for the Mortal who tries to retreive a loved one. Not unlike 
the way Prophecies come back and bite the believer in the butt. So 
although I believe Harry is going to the Beyond with this purpose, 
I'm less confident that he will return with Sirius as planned. 

Anyway, we'll be discussing again, I'm sure.

Mhbobbin