Tyranny (WAS Harry learning from Snape) long

[dzeytoun]

No: HPFGUIDX 114544


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Tonks" <tonks_op at y...> wrote:
> 
> Dzeytoun said:
> UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD HE RESPOND TO SNAPE WITH RESPECT
> UNLESS THE RESPECT HAS BEEN EARNED.
> 
> Tonks replies:
> Snape is the adult in a position of authority in a civilized world,
> he is to be treated with the respect of his position, he does not
> have to EARN the respect of a CHILD! Harry does not have to like
> him, just obey him, as long as Snape does not ask Harry to violate
> the law or his conscience. After all Snape shows that kind of
> obedience to Dumbledore.
> 

You are absolutely, totally, and completely incorrect.  Snape MUST 
earn the respect of his students, and he MUST earn the respect of 
Harry.  Your attitude here is absolutely not different than that of 
Voldemort.

> 
> 2.Dumbledore attitude is noble and the sign of a good leader, and a
> very holy man. DD sees everyone as equal. He give people the
> benefit of the doubt and a second chance. People follow DD because
> they want too. I have heard it said and it is true: You can only
> speak the truth, you have no control over what others do with it.
> And DD knows this. People have free will, and he does not try to
> take it from them.
> 
So, he sits back while Snape abuses his students.  And yes, it IS 
abuse, spare us the squabbling about old ways versus new ways.  There 
is NOTHING whatsoever holy about that.

> Tonks replies to both:
> I agree with Pippin. I disagree with Dzeytoun. DD has a better
> weapon than LV, because he does not have that attitude. There are
> *weapons* stronger than power and force. And JKR is going to show
> us what they are.

You take those weapons.  I'll take a wand and wizarding powers.  
Don't complain about what happens.

> 
> Dzeytoun said:
> (talking about DD) If you are a manager, a general, or any other
> person in charge of a large scale and important task you squash
> disruptive behavior forthwith. Harsh, but truth almost always is.
> 
> Tonks replies:
> And just HOW is this attitude any different than what Snape does
> with his students?
> 
> 3. Responding to nasty people:
> 
> Dzeytoun said:
> However, he MUST make clear to Snape what he will not tolerate or
> accept. A good starting point would be for him to tell Snape,
> politely but coldly "Professor, I WILL NOT tolerate any comments
> from you about my father or about Sirius Black. If you care about
> defeating Voldemort, you are simply going to have to adjust your
> attitude." Another excellent technique (it has worked for me on
> multiple occasions) is to treat Snape like an errant child and
> refuse to acknowledge that he is speaking unless he uses at least
> minimally polite language.
> 
> Tonks replies:
> NO, NO, NO. Absolutely NO. Harry is the child here. A CHILD. He is
> to keep his mouth SHUT, and treat his elders with respect. He does
> not have to feel it, just DO IT!!!! And that will, as others here
> have said, teach and show (internally to Harry, if to no one else)
> that Harry is the *better man*. And a MATURE human being. And that
> is what we want Harry to become, a mature human being that does not
> change his behavior to match the poor behavior of someone else.
> (between two people of equal status one would tell the other what
> one will tolerate and not tolerate, but Snape is Harry's superior
> here.)
>

YES, YES, YES. ABSOLUTELY YES.  Harry is a child, true.  He also 
deserves to be treated in a correct, supportive, and non-abusive 
manner.  HE MOST CERTAINLY SHOULD NOT KEEP HIS MOUTH SHUT BECAUSE OF 
ACCIDENTS OF AGE OF BECAUSE SOME ABUSIVE PERSON HAS A TEACHING 
POSITION!  Snape has NO right be superior positon or anything else to 
be treated with respect.  And SNAPE IS NOT HARRY'S SUPERIOR IN THE 
MOST MEANINGFUL, AND ULTIMATELY THE ONLY MEANINGFUL WAY, THE MORAL 
ONE.



> Dzeytoun said:
> I've dealt with many Snapes over a long period in both academics and
> government, and the only way to permanently address the issue, if
> higher authority is unwilling to get involved (which, incidentally,
> I've found isn't the case most of the time if you scream loud
> enough) is to out-Snape them.
> 
> Tonks replies:
> I think that this is stooping to their level and not rising above
> it. I hope and think that Harry will do better than that. 

Incredibly naive of you.


Dzeytoun