Tyranny (WAS Harry learning from Snape) long

[Tonks]

No: HPFGUIDX 114533


Oh I see that I am stepping into something here, and probably going
to stir the waters even more, but I just can't sit by and bite my
tongue a minute longer. Forgive me if I offend anyone. I hope I
have at least one or two friends left at the end!

1. Snape is not *abusing* his students. Yes, by modern day U.S.
standards where teachers *fear* their students, but not by the *old*
ways.And the WW goes by the old ways. Snape has not physically
touched (hit) a child. (I can't believe that I have gotten to an age
where I am going to say this!) But *when I was a kid* a teacher
could even hit you, with a ruler on the hand. It was not considered
abuse. I was a goody two shoes myself, but even I once was sent to
the Principal's office with other kids who did not come in from
recess on time (I did not hear the bell, my first and only offense)
and he took his knuckle and hit me hard on top of my head. Being a
very sensitive child I did all I could to keep from crying. That is
the way things were done back then. Yes we had teachers that we
hated, but we SHOWED respect to them, because that is what you did.
It didn't matter what you felt, it mattered what you did. (Not like
today where students act like so disrespectfully towards anyone in a
position of authority!!! I agree with Filch, give `um the
rack!!!... ;-) )

There are always going to be people like that as teachers and in
other positions of authority, you can't fire them all and put only
*nice* people in charge. And it doesn't matter in the battle
between good and evil, because sometimes the *nice* people are
really the evil ones. Just because someone is rather curt and not
sweetness and light doesn't make them evil. I think that JKR is
trying to teach children that by having a teacher like Snape on the
staff, because he will turn out to be a hero in the end.

Dzeytoun said:
UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD HE RESPOND TO SNAPE WITH RESPECT
UNLESS THE RESPECT HAS BEEN EARNED.

Tonks replies:
Snape is the adult in a position of authority in a civilized world,
he is to be treated with the respect of his position, he does not
have to EARN the respect of a CHILD! Harry does not have to like
him, just obey him, as long as Snape does not ask Harry to violate
the law or his conscience. After all Snape shows that kind of
obedience to Dumbledore.


2.Dumbledore attitude is noble and the sign of a good leader, and a
very holy man. DD sees everyone as equal. He give people the
benefit of the doubt and a second chance. People follow DD because
they want too. I have heard it said and it is true: You can only
speak the truth, you have no control over what others do with it.
And DD knows this. People have free will, and he does not try to
take it from them.

Pippin said:
If people share Dumbledore's views, it should be because they want
to, not because Albus Dumbledore is good at being obeyed. Dumbledore
has no more right to remake others in his image than Voldemort does.

Dzeytoun replied to Pippin:
That is an utterly and absolutely absurd attitude. And if Dumbledore
really does feel that way, he has no business being in charge of a
lemonade stand, much less a school or a war.

Tonks replies to both:
I agree with Pippin. I disagree with Dzeytoun. DD has a better
weapon than LV, because he does not have that attitude. There are
*weapons* stronger than power and force. And JKR is going to show
us what they are.

Dzeytoun said:
(talking about DD) If you are a manager, a general, or any other
person in charge of a large scale and important task you squash
disruptive behavior forthwith. Harsh, but truth almost always is.

Tonks replies:
And just HOW is this attitude any different than what Snape does
with his students?

3. Responding to nasty people:

Dzeytoun said:
However, he MUST make clear to Snape what he will not tolerate or
accept. A good starting point would be for him to tell Snape,
politely but coldly "Professor, I WILL NOT tolerate any comments
from you about my father or about Sirius Black. If you care about
defeating Voldemort, you are simply going to have to adjust your
attitude." Another excellent technique (it has worked for me on
multiple occasions) is to treat Snape like an errant child and
refuse to acknowledge that he is speaking unless he uses at least
minimally polite language.

Tonks replies:
NO, NO, NO. Absolutely NO. Harry is the child here. A CHILD. He is
to keep his mouth SHUT, and treat his elders with respect. He does
not have to feel it, just DO IT!!!! And that will, as others here
have said, teach and show (internally to Harry, if to no one else)
that Harry is the *better man*. And a MATURE human being. And that
is what we want Harry to become, a mature human being that does not
change his behavior to match the poor behavior of someone else.
(between two people of equal status one would tell the other what
one will tolerate and not tolerate, but Snape is Harry's superior
here.)


SSSusan said:
I want to see Harry work around the "stuff" and prove he is becoming
a mature man who knows that he MUST master his emotions and take
responsibility for learning what he needs to learn.


and Toto replied:
But that kind of maturing doesn't exist.

Tonks replies to both:
I agree with SSSusan. And Toto, yes that kind of maturity DOES
exist. I think we will see Harry get to that point.

Dzeytoun said:
I've dealt with many Snapes over a long period in both academics and
government, and the only way to permanently address the issue, if
higher authority is unwilling to get involved (which, incidentally,
I've found isn't the case most of the time if you scream loud
enough) is to out-Snape them.

Tonks replies:
I think that this is stooping to their level and not rising above
it. I hope and think that Harry will do better than that. And Harry
will be an example to us all. I too have in the past had to work
with people who seemed like LV himself, and I am ashamed to say that
I had your attitude towards them. It did not help the situation one
bit. It only served to add fuel to the fire, and raise my blood
pressure. It did not change the other person; in fact I think it
played into their hand. There is such a thing as *eliciting
behavior*. That means that a person subconsciously act in a way that
will cause most people to respond to them in a particular way. So a
nasty person at some level may want people to keep their distance,
for example, or to respond to them in an equally nasty way. So if
you act the way they subconsciously want you to behave, then they
have really won!! But if you treat a person as a human being, with
the respect that every human being deserves, just because they are,
or because the have a spark of the creator in them, than you are the
better person for it. And it will not eat you alive. Harry has more
important things to think about and better ways to use his energy
than to become involved in an emotional battle with Snape. I can
tell you from experience that no one wins that battle, NO ONE. Even
when you win, you really lose. So the only mature, healthy response
and the one I think that Harry will learn, is to see the other
person as a flawed human being, have pity on them and go about your
business. Don't be pulled into the *game*. After all hate and love
are somewhat the same, as both imply an emotional involvement. So
does *acting cold*. Whereas indifference is not an emotional
involvement. And that it the mindset that Harry needs to learn from
his involvement with Snape in order to keep LV out of his mind.

Tonks_op