Snape and Lucius ages Re: [HPforGrownups] Re: "Lapdog" and "snivel"

[onnanokata]

No: HPFGUIDX 115095


Hannah wrote:
 
feklar wrote:

I always thought the LM/SS childhood relationship was fannon and 
the lapdog comment referred to LM being an infamous and powerful 
DE. I think SB thinks LM was probably as powerful as a DE as he 
clearly is in everyday life, and Snape was probably a potions-
making nobody much as he is in real life. 
 
Hannah: 

No, I think there's more to it than that.  Note Snape's 
favouritist treatment of Draco (even more so than of other 
Slytherins), the way Draco speaks to Snape, and that Lucius 
speaks 'most highly' of Snape to Umbridge.

Dharma replies:

Hannah, I like what you are offering up here.  I think that Feklar 
was really questioning/objecting to my assertion that it was a 
*school* relationship.  To me you guys both seem to be on to 
something. I'm wondering if they could have had an idol/fan or 
student/mentor relationship that started at a young age and 
continued, leading to Snape becoming a Death Eater?

It just really seems like Snape has some investment in Malfoy other 
than the obvious. Why did Snape make that sudden movement when Harry 
said he saw Malfoy in the circle of Death Eaters (Chapter 36 GoF)?  I 
guess it could be possible, but I doubt that was Snape unaware that 
Malfoy is part of Voldemort's inner circle.
    
 
Yb wrote:

When Harry was in his fifth year, SS was 36. In OOTP, 
Lucius is 41--five years older than Snape. When Snape was 11, LM was 
16, that's a hell of an age gap to overcome, especially for a
teenager who is more likely to be both socially selfish and self-
conscious. In my RL experience, I can't think of a 16 y-o I knew 
who would willingly spend time with an 11 y-o for anything other 
than money (i.e. babysitting). While I can imagine an 11 yo 
might idolize an older student, I can't see why a 16 y-o LM would 
have  any interest in a kid, any kid, five years behind him.
 
Hannah: 

I agree with that, Yb.  I don't think the relationship was 
ever a friendship between equals.  I always take that term 'gang' 
very loosely, especially since it comes from the perceptions of 
Sirius, an outsider who'd have not had much idea what really went on 
in the Slytherin common room.  I expect Dennis Creevy would assure 
everyone he was in Potter's 'gang,' and people from other houses 
might see it like that from their limited knowledge.  But in actual 
fact, Dennis does relatively little socialising with Harry.

Dharma replies:

That is an interesting idea.  Being around their common room Lucius 
could have gotten a feel for some of the younger Slytherins, 
without "hanging out" with the younger kids during lesson time and 
free weekends.  Creevy/Potter relationship is closer to what I was 
trying to say, when I came up with Peter/James as a comparison.  
Snape and Lucius have no direct interaction in the books, so my 
impression is based on the "Lapdog"/"Snivellus" comments and the 
memories that Harry extracts during the Occlumency lessons.


Yb continued:> Picture this: 

Little Sevvie comes into Hogwarts knowing plenty of hexes and curses 
and the like. Plus, he is a Potions professor, so he must have had a 
knack for brewing things. These sort of things, especially the hexes 
part, would show up rather early in his career at Hogwarts, like the 
first time some of the other students started teasing him about being 
thin, pale, and probably greasy-haired. Sevvie would fire a couple of 
hexes and send the tormentors running for cover, and little Lucius 
would take notice.
 
Hannah: 

My theory is that Severus didn't know as many curses as 
Sirius thinks, at least, not immediately.  I think he was picked on 
by a gang of students from another house, and prefect Lucius saw 
what was going on, and stepped in out of house loyalty.  He's heard 
of the name 'Snape' and knows they're 'the right sort.'  So he takes 
malicious pleasure in teaching little Sevvie some curses so he can 
defend himself.  Snape thinks Lucius is wonderful for this, and 
Lucius gains a younger boy who's willing to run errands for him.

Yb wrote: 

I would imagine that LM was a DE at the beginning. Maybe 
his father was one too, and recruited Junior, or maybe his 
grandfather was one of those in Tom Riddle's "inner circle" of 
friends. Either way, LM was probably a DE by the time he left 
Hogwarts. So he had two years to notice Severus Snape, and recruit 
him into his gang, which would probably be a prelude to joining the 
DEs after graduation.
 
Hannah: 

I don't imagine people becoming DE's until after Hogwarts, 
or at least until they're of age.  I can't imagine LV having any 
patience with a gaggle of children who aren't allowed to do magic 
outside of school.  Of course, there may be some kind of 'junior DE' 
oraganisation, but I think it would be risky at Hogwarts.  LV never 
dared interfere at Hogwarts, and DD knows 'everything' that goes 
on.  I think he would react very strongly to anyone trying to 
recruit his students for LV's army.  There may have been whispers of 
it amongst the students, but I don't see anything too official.
 
Dharma replies:

I'd like to throw out a general question on this topic.  Given that 
there are differences in the social climate and the perception of 
Voldemort's power, will the Death Eaters change their recruitment 
strategies?

There are a couple of reasons that this is interesting to me.  First, 
there is the Voldemort's relationship to Harry.  Harry is in school 
and is the only Wizard that has been able to stop Voldemort, even if 
it was temporary.  Although, Voldemort seems to be bent on taking a 
personal vengeance, wouldn't he be interested in having someone with 
access to Harry and his friends strategically placed to act?  Using 
Snape in this capacity could compromise his position as a "spy."

Also from what I could gather, the first war did not start in earnest 
until the Marauders were on the verge of exiting school.  There might 
not have been a great need to have school age people working for 
Voldemort's cause on the inside, but now the children in school 
include some of the victims of the first war (kids who lost family 
members on both sides).  Will the kids in 6th and 7th year, really be 
detached from what is going on outside?  I'm just curious about other 
people's predictions.