DD and the rat (was:Re: Minerva McGonagall-/Dumbledore)

[huntergreen_3]

No: HPFGUIDX 115597


HunterGreen previously:
>>Or perhaps Peter, who's been a spy for about a year at this point, 
is happily thinking of bringing the information to Voldemort? You 
think the three of them "bullied" him into it? He could have easily
refused, all he had to say was 'no'.<<

Carolyn replied:
>>No, I cannot imagine Peter doing anything 'happily'. His phrases,
when Sirius lets him speak are: 'what could I have done? ..he has
weapons you can't imagine..I was scared Sirius, I was never brave
like you and Remus and James. I never meant it to happen.. he was
taking over everywhere..what was there to be gained by refusing him?'
We are all repelled and have a lovely time, self-righteously
saying 'huh, I'd never do that'. Hang him!<<

HunterGreen:
Ah, perhaps, but if you look at the full quote you'll see something 
different. Peter is being quite specific with his words here.

[PoA] "Sirius, Sirius, what could I have done? The Dark Lord... you 
have no idea... he has weapons you can't imagine....I was scared, 
Sirius, I was never brave like you and Remus and James. I never meant 
it to happen....He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named forced me --"

"DON'T LIE!" bellowed Black. "YOU'D BEEN PASSING INFORMATION TO
HIM FOR A YEAR BEFORE LILY AND JAMES DIED! YOU WERE HIS SPY!"

"He -- he was taking over everywhere!" gasped Pettigrew. "Wh -- what 
was there to be gained by refusing him?" [/PoA]

He was *lying* when he said he was forced to give up James and Lily. 
Perhaps Voldemort forced him to give up information the *first* time, 
but after that a year passed by before he was made SK and gave up 
James and Lily. During that time he could have chose to go to 
Dumbledore or someone else and tell them he had been approached and 
threatened by DEs or Voldemort himself. But he chose not to. I could 
forgive him if Voldemort forced the secret-keeper information out of 
him and that was it, but it wasn't. He had a chance to go back to the 
good side and he chose not to. 
Peter is not as innocent as he makes himself out to be. After 
Voldemort fell he framed Sirius and killed 12 muggles. There was no 
one threatening him to do that, no Voldemort or DE around then. And 
after the events of PoA he takes off and joins Voldemort. Right there 
he had a chance to redeem himself: he could have abandoned baby!
Voldemort and took off to tell Dumbledore the killing Harry / 
resurrection plot, but he doesn't. Whether he joined the DEs out of 
self-preservation, or wanting to be with the winning side, or because 
of anger about how James and Sirius treated him, he has proven to be 
an actual Death Eater. He hasn't shown any interest in going back to 
the 'good' side (sort of like the inverse of Snape). 

Carolyn:
>>The point I am making here is that they created their own nemesis. 
No one, especially not the supposedly saintly Lily thought to consider
who Peter really was, why he hung around them so creepily, what the
effect of their constant contempt might be. JKR might be drawing a
parallel by letting us see how Harry reacts to the tiresome Creevey
brothers. So far, he hasn't really been nasty to them, but he might
be; it is very tempting.<<

HunterGreen:
The problem with people like Peter (and I witnessed this type of 
thing many times in middle and high school) is that the friendship 
they offer is generally very disloyal. He doesn't like James and 
Sirius for them, but for the place they have in the school, for their 
mystique, their popularity. If they were to suddenly fall down the 
social ladder, how long would Peter hang around? Yes, they aren't 
kind to him, but they never invited him to be their best bud either, 
and how much kindness should they show him considering he is more of 
a 'fan' then a friend? Personally, I think they should tell Peter to 
get lost, or challenge his loyalty somehow, because people like that 
are dangerous to have around. Peter was never a real friend at all, 
which is why it was so stupid to trust him, but they clearly didn't 
see that.  

Carolyn:
>>Of course Peter should not have gone over to Voldemort, but how many
people on this list would really be that brave if they were in
genuine fear of torture and death? It is so simple how people get
sucked in - fiddling your tax, buying stuff on the black market, a
bit of hash for a roll up..all seems pretty small beer until suddenly
it isn't.<<

HunterGreen:
Well, going over is one thing, but *staying* over is another. Peter 
was not threatened for information, then killed, he was threatened 
then set loose to get more information. He always had the choice to 
tell someone what was going on, but he didn't.

Carolyn:
>>All I hear here is extreme worries that Dumbledore might not be
as 'good' as you, and many others, want him to be. What I think is
closer to the truth is that he trusts almost no one, and is old
enough to have seen just about everything human nature is capable of,
including many shades of weakness and betrayal.
[snip]
One of his calculations has come true, the
trio of Sirius, James & Lily have screwed up big time, I think he
knows immediately that it was Pettigrew that did it, and why. Yes, I
think he his indifferent about Sirius rotting in Azkaban for his
hubris, and that although not technically guilty of the crime he was
in for, Sirius is as good as guilty and might as well stay there.<<

HunterGreen:
If Dumbledore let Sirius stay in prison for 12 years when he knew he 
was innocent, that doesn't make him simply "not good", but downright 
evil. I see nothing in the books to indicate that Dumbledore would do 
something like that. Sirius may have been indirectly responsible, but 
he's not guilty of anything other than trusting the wrong person (and 
perhaps being too clever for his own good). As I asked in my last 
post, if Dumbledore though Sirius deserved what happened to him, why 
did he get Harry and Hermione to save him at the end of PoA? 

Carolyn:
>>There is no canon to suggest that Peter went directly to Dumbledore,
and I think DD guessed what had happened after it was too late to
act. McGonagall says 'James Potter told Dumbledore that Black would
die rather than tell where they were...and yet, Dumbledore remained
worried.' Sirius and Lupin admit at the Shrieking Shack that they
suspected each other of being the spy that Dumbledore had detected in
their ranks.<<

HunterGreen:
Why do you think DD figured it out? James had planned on using Sirius 
as the SK, what reason would DD have to think that that hadn't 
happened?