Snape and Magic Dishwasher. Was: Re: DD and the rat:

[bluesqueak]

No: HPFGUIDX 115987



> 
> > --- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "bluesqueak" 
<pipdowns at e...> 
<snip>Sirius is not completely undeserving 
> > 
> > > of Snape's nastiness in this case. One of the things Snape 
> 
> > > hears just before pulling off the cloak is Sirius announcing 
> > > that Snape deserved to be Wolfie Chunks.  That Sirius is, in 
> 
> > > fact, not in any way repentant of a stupid trick that could 
> > > have ended up killing Snape, getting his friend expelled, and  
> > > possibly killing James Potter as well.
> 
> 
> > Alla:
> > 
> > Oh, the infamous..."served him right". It is certainly a 
> possibility  that Sirius is completely unrepentant of the stupid 
> trick he played on Snape many years ago, but as you say, I find 
> something VERY wrong with this picture.
> Sirius is just escaped from the Hellhole named Azkaban. It is 
> canon that Dementors leave you with your worst feelings, with your 
> worst fears, if you might.


Ah, yes of course. I forgot. It's all Snape's fault [grin]. Under no 
circumstances can Sirius be a git. Sirius has *reasons* for any 
nasty behaviour. Snape doesn't understand poor Sirius. He is 
unsympathetic to what he's been through. 

He was probably to blame for Sirius bullying him as well. Obviously. 
The way he was, well, just *being* there in the Pensieve scene. 
Besides, he has grey underwear. Snape most likely smelt. Somebody 
has to do something about kids like that. Humiliate them, for 
example.

OK, I'm being sarcastic. Because frankly, neither Snape nor Sirius 
are nice people. The reason we see Sirius as nice is quite simple - 
Harry likes him. We see Sirius through his viewpoint. 

When not viewed through Harry's viewpoint, Sirius
1)was a school bully
2)played a potentially lethal trick on the kid he bullied
3)owns a slave (whether house-elves are always slaves is a moot 
point, but I'd say that Dobby, Winky and Kreacher are all treated as 
if they were slaves by the Malfoys, Crouches and the Blacks)
4)treats that slave with contempt.

There are probably other points. Sirius is charming and Snape is 
charmless - they're both very flawed human beings. 

> > Alla:
> Sirius leaves Azkaban driven by revenge against Peter and desire 
> to protect Harry. He does not expect to hear or see Snape in 
> Hogwarts, he does not even know that Snape is teaching.
>  
> > But the minute Lupin mentions trick, Sirius reacts VERY 
> > strongly. Could it be that "serves him right" is something more 
> > that just unrepentance? Could it be that Dementors forced Sirius 
> > to remember some VERY unpleasant Snape/related moments?


Such as turning him upside down and exposing his underwear?


> > Alla:
> > Oh, the possibilities. :)

Anything is possible - but to date we've seen Sirius allow the 
unconscious Snape to knock his head against a tunnel wall, bully him 
two on one (to be fair, James instigated that one) and tell him how 
to get into a tunnel with a werewolf at the other end. What he's 
said against Snape is - *not* that Snape used to attack him at 
school. Instead, he's said that the young Snape was fascinated by 
the Dark arts, knew a lot of curses, hung around with Slytherins who 
later became DE's, and was slimy. And oily. And tried to get them 
kicked out of school. 

Unfortunately, the current state of canon evidence (rather than 
speculative evidence) is that Sirius and James were the bullies, 
Snape the victim. Even the trying to get them kicked out of school 
can be (speculatively) fitted into a 'victim' pattern for Snape - 
people who're being bullied often dream about the bullies getting 
expelled. 

Sirius tries to follow this pattern of bullying in Chapter 24 of 
OOP, by the way. 

> 
> > Pip:
> > 
> > Snape had two chances to kill Sirius - firstly in the Shack 
itself, 
> secondly by calling the Dementors back when he recovers 
> consciousness. Instead, he takes him to Dumbledore. 
> 
> > Alla:
> > 
> > Yes, he does. IMO, because it is a possibility to get more glory 

> > > for him - you know, to catch the escaped murderer AND for the 
> > world to know about it. It is much more pleasant to watch 
> > Dementors to kiss Sirius and gloat with pleasure knowing that  
> > Harry will see it too,for example. And of course, Order of 
> Merlin.


Of course. 

I'm trying to think of another point in the books (not in 
speculation) where Snape seeks glory. His work in the first 
Voldemort war is undercover. His work in the second Voldemort war is 
fairly low-key. Given the opportunity to please Umbridge he sticks 
with Dumbledore. He's willing to have the whole staff-room think 
he's refereeing unfairly to save Harry. And so on. The order of 
Merlin is first brought up by Fudge, not Snape, and later mentioned 
by Lupin, not Snape. 

Order of Merlin - not red and herring shaped, is it? :-)


> > Alla:
> > 
> > I don't think view of his actions and words is that separable. 
> > Of course, Harry does not have a full picture of Snape, but even 
> when he gets fuller and fuller picture, there is something which 
> does not change - even when Harry knows that Snape on Dumbledore's 
> side, Snape still a sadist. Whether he supports Light or not, it 
> does not excuse, IMO, his gloating over humilation and distress of 
> the pupils in his care.


Snape isn't a true sadist. *Umbridge* is a true sadist. Umbridge is 
what real sadism looks like. Snape is a git in the fine old English 
tradition of sarcasm so withering you burst into tears, and have to 
be dragged out of the toilet two hours later, you're so upset. 

Snape's a picture of a type of teacher who used to be (possibly 
still is) very common in English schools. I remember a Miss Snape. 
And I hated her. But it was a recognised teaching style, something 
that pupils had to learn to cope with because we'd meet it in the 
real world later. Such teachers were not remotely interested in 
caring for your emotional well-being; just in battering the lesson 
plan into your dim little brain {g}. 


Alla:
> Snape is capable of doing a right thing sometimes, of course, but 
> how he gets there is important too and may cross out A LOT.Just my 
> opinion, of course.


Of course. If we all had the same opinions, this would be a very low 
volume list [grin].

> > Alla:
> > Pip, I remember you used to call Snape a git and I used to think 
> that this a very, very tender name for him. Yes, sadist is the 
> word I am much more comfortable with or as Nora puts it "mild 
> streak of sadism".


Um. Well to me, sadist implies more physical violence. I think Snape 
does have a sadistic streak, but as I say above, if I was asked to 
identify the 'sadist' in the Hogwarts classroom, I'd go for 
Umbridge. Snape tries, I think, to keep the sadistic streak strictly 
verbal; the one time he does injure Harry he starts screaming at the 
boy to get out, now. Unlike Umbridge, who keeps Harry cutting into 
his hands for hours and hours and hours ...

> > Alla:
> > By the way, what do you mean, same type of clues are planted 
> > about Snape? You mean, he will turn out to be a traitor after 
>
> >  all and Harry will turn out to be right all along? :o)

:-P

Misdirection. It's all misdirection.  But which direction is being 
mis-ed? {g}

Pip!Squeak