Teen Conflict (was: "Lapdog" and "snivel")

[onnanokata]

No: HPFGUIDX 116152


Dharma wrote:
<snip>> 
I'd just like reiterate something that others have hinted at, or said 
in the past on this topic.  At 15, the Hogwarts kids are 2 years away 
from going into the adult world.  There does not seem to be much in 
the way of delayed adolescence in the Wizarding World.  By the time 
we see James hexing Snape, they very well could have had some very 
adult sense of morality.  Their views on pureblood supremacy really 
could have been intellectually and morally very important at that 
time.  
 
They were only 2 years away from being expected to participate fully 
in the adult world.  At the time the Marauders and Snape are 15 years-
 old violence is increasing, and they are facing going out into that 
world.  Why wouldn't any of the older students have an opinion about 
this situation?  James may have initially been popular for other 
reasons, but his stance against the Dark Arts could have impacted how 
others perceived him as well. 
 
Carol responds:
Unfortunately, we don't see James demonstrating any such maturity or 
social concern. Instead, we see him joking about the werewold answer 
on the exam, playing with a snitch, and "entertaining" the bored 
Sirius by hexing Severus. If he were so concerned with opposing the 
doctrine of pureblood supremacy, you would think that he would 
express these views. Instead, all we have is his reaction to 
Severus's angrily calling Lily a Mudblood, probably the first term 
that comes to his mind under the circumstances. There's no indication 
that pureblood ideology is of concern to either boy.

Dharma replies:

James does have a problem with the using slurs to describe people of 
Muggleborn heritage, so much so that he refuses to even say the word 
Mudblood.   His words are, "I'd NEVER call you you-know-what."

Now if he and Snape held contempt for one another, for 5 years up to 
this point, James could have had many reasons to dislike Snape, 
including their feelings about the Dark Arts.  There is not enough 
evidence to exclude the notion that James and Snape were on the 
opposite ends of the spectrum by the time they were 15.  The issue of 
the Dark Arts could have just been another example in a litany of 
dislike.  People do not act rationally at every moment in their 
lives.  Snape has held on to this grudge long enough to project those 
feeling onto James' son.  It might not be kind or just, but it's what 
seems to be happening.

As to maturity, the behavior we saw constituted approximately 15 
minutes in a 5-year conflict based on mutual dislike.  It's clear to 
me that James was out of line for 15 of the 2,160,000 minutes (give 
or take a couple hundred) that they had been in school together, but 
there is no information about what either Snape or James was up to in 
the 2,159,985 minutes, as it relates to the conflict.  I'm not going 
to assume that either of party was always on his best or worst 
behavior for all of this time, nor am I going to assume that what we 
saw was the sum of either of their personalities in the pensieve.  
Decent people often hold irrational beliefs.  It is part of the 
imperfection of humanity.  Sirius and Lupin try to get Harry to 
understand that James behavior in the pensieve, while immature and 
unacceptable, did not reflect the entirety of his personality.
 
Carol wrote:

As for his opposition to the Dark Arts, the only canon evidence for 
this view is a statement made by Sirius twenty years later that James 
hated the Dark Arts. There is no indication in the Pensieve scene 
itself that James is opposed to the Dark Arts and associates them 
with Severus. James's stated, canonical reason for bullying Severus 
is "because he exists." Any other reason is purely speculative--at 
least until Book 6 or 7 provides the missing evidence.

Dharma replies:

"Because he exists," sounds like another instance of saying the 
nastiest thing you can think of about another person rather, than 
actually seriously attempting to address an issue.  James is being 
completely arrogant, and completely demeaning toward Snape.  He's 
insulting him by suggesting that Snape's being is a problem unto 
itself.  This is analogous to Snape's behavior.  Snape says to 
James, "I don't need help from filthy little Mudbloods like her!"  
Both of them are dehumanizing other individuals by speaking about 
them in the third person and attempting to reduce their significance 
as a person. 

Lily says, "What's he done to you?"  James replies, "It's more the 
fact that he exists, if you know what I mean-"  The word exists is 
italicized in the text.  James could be implying quite a number of 
things here.   He never clarifies exactly what that means.

Carol wrote:
 
And if James were so concerned with the upcoming battle against 
Voldemort (which again is not mentioned in this scene), shouldn't he 
take his DADA exam seriously? Instead, he is tracing the letters LE 
on his exam book. His mind is not on the subject that ought to be of 
great concern if he is already, at fifteen or sixteen, concerned with 
the battle against Voldemort. He's preoccupied with the girl he has a 
crush on. And as far as schoolwork is concerned, his efforts so far 
have been focused on Transfiguration, not so he can fight Voldemort 
or even so that he can do well on his OWLs, but so that he and his 
friends can transform themselves into animals and run around with a 
werewolf. (That, just possibly, could account for McGonagall's memory 
of him as a brilliant student. She remembers him in her classes. She 
never saw him in any other class.)

Dharma replies:

Well McGonagall tells us that they were both James and Sirius are 
exceptionally bright.  Remus tells us that they were the cleverest 
students in their year.  Dumbledore comments on the 
how "extraordinary" it was that they were able to keep the animagus 
transformation for him.  Obviously they were both quite smart and 
could have very well finished their exams in plenty of time to allow 
their minds to wander.  Their ability to complete their DADA exams 
just goes to show that they were on top of their studies.  James does 
become Headboy.  He might not have always been the most serious 
student, but more than likely was always able to get good marks. 
 
Dharma replies:

And if Severus is so enamored of the Dark Arts, and again it's Sirius 
who says that he was, why is he so intent on his exam in *Defense 
Against* the Dark Arts? Clearly he knows the subject inside out; his 
answers to the questions are so detailed that he has to write in a 
minuscule hand to get them in. Clearly he cares about the subject 
(and his mark in it) or he wouldn't be obsessively studying the exam 
sheet when the test is over. The adult Snape's desire to teach DADA 
is not some whim. He cares about and knows about this topic. It would 
be very surprising if he did not get an O ("outstanding") on both his 
OWL and his NEWT. An intense fascination with DADA is a very odd 
trait in a
future DE, and yet there it is. It's Severus, not James (or Sirius)
who's studying the one subject that the future opponents of Voldemort 
must master in order to fight him.

Dharma replies:

Again, this is evidence that a student is on top of his studies.  
Snape might very well know his subject, but that does not speak much 
to any relationship for or against Voldemort.  

The reason that Snape is able to go into so much detail could be that 
he has quite a bit of experience with the Dark Arts.  Learning to use 
the Dark Arts goes hand-in-hand with learning to defend against 
them.  It's two sides of the same coin.  It would make very little 
sense for a Dark Wizard to learn to cast offensive spells but not 
learn to counter them.  Snape becomes a Death Eater, and capable of 
legilimency and occlumency advanced enough to fend to keep his spy 
status from either Dumbledore or Voldemort (depending on who he is 
actually working for).  This seems to take exceptional discipline.  
Perhaps he applied that disciple to all of his studies.  I personally 
can't remember any examples of Snape not being up to the task I any 
branch of magic.
 
Dharma wrote:

I agree that Snape might not have been loyal to Voldemort, but the 
perception that he supported the Dark Arts, could have impacted the 
way people viewed him.  Even if some of the students did not agree 
with James' bullying behavior, they may have held a negative general 
view of Snape as well.  We don't know why they were looking 
apprehensive.  It is significant to me that only Lily is willing to 
confront James. 

Is the student body generally afraid of James?  That could be, but 
then why is he consistently described as popular and not intimidating 
or overly aggressive?  As an adult, even Snape describes James 
arrogant but not as a generally aggressive individual.  The exception 
might be "The Prank," which would depict James a manipulative rather 
than physically intimidating
Which leads me to other thoughts
Are the 
apprehensive students not interested enough in Snape's safety to risk 
entering a conflict with James, who is a very
talented young Wizard?
 
Carol responds:
I think you've answered your own question here. The student body may 
or may not agree with James, but he's popular as an athlete and they 
don't want him to hex them. Lily says that he hexes people for fun 
and James doesn't deny it. Later, in GoF, Sirius says that James 
stopped hexing other people, but not Severus Snape. 

Dharma replies:

Well if James was popular and well liked, chances are he was not 
really hexing a majority of people he knew.  Again, the majority of 
students did not dislike James, and he's never described as overly 
aggressive.  We don't know the identities of the other people he 
hexed, or what got on his neves enough for him to start wielding his 
wand.   He could have gotten into minor tiffs all over Hogwarts.  
This type of behavior in the halls is still going on at the school in 
Harry's day.  

Immature bullying seems to happen frequently and be tolerated to some 
extent in the Hogwarts Halls. Most of the main student characters 
have been hit with a curse, hex, jinx or bit of bad sportsmanship at 
some point during the stories.  Very rarely do adults mete out any 
consequences for magical scuffles beyond point reduction and 
detention.  Sirius says clearly that he and James were frequently in 
detention.  It seems to me that James and Sirius may have been 
obnoxious, but like the Weasley twins, they managed to not cross the 
line.  Sirius probably crossed it with "The Prank", but it seems that 
James was not involved in planning that one.

On the apprehensive students in the pensieve
They might have had 
little interest in Snape's safety; there is not enough evidence to 
rule that out.  Perhaps those in the apprehensive lot were unwilling 
to stick their necks out for Snape, but might have acted differently 
if the victim of the jinx had been someone else.  If they liked 
James, but did not care for Snape, why would they bother getting 
caught up in the ongoing conflict?  Lily may have strongly felt that 
James and Sirius were out of control, but others could have had a 
different perspective.  
 
Carol wrote:

Severus, of we can trust what Sirius says of him, already knew more 
curses than most seventh-years when he entered Hogwarts. Maybe James, 
on his way to growing up and becoming the heroic figure he seems to 
be at Godric's Hollow, stopped hexing people weaker than himself--
that is, most of
the Hogwarts students. But he didn't stop hexing Severus--either
because he still disliked him "because he exists"--or just possibly 
because Severus was the one person who could, and would, fight him 
back.

Dharma replies:

James hexes people who annoy him.  That is not the same as most of 
the students.

Perhaps James does not stop hexing Snape because, Snape never hangs 
up his wand either.  Snape very well could have been holding on to 
this grudge with a death grip too.  We don't even know who started 
the conflict between the two of them, and we don't know that Snape 
never goes on the offensive.  Perhaps Snape is still following the 
Marauders around trying to create problems, just as Sirius said he 
was.  

Carol wrote:
  
Regardless of his motivations or the reasons for his popularity, I
know of no canon evidence that James was regarded as a hero for his 
opposition to the Dark Arts or to the Slytherin pureblood ideology. 
Athe evidence, as we now have it, indicates that he was merely 
an "arrogant little berk" who liked attention, hexed other people for 
fun, ruffled his hair to make it attractively windblown. Whatever 
grudge they bore against Severus Snape (and when Lily asks James what 
Severus has done to them, he has no good answer), he and Sirius 
caught Severus off-guard and fought him two against one. If that's 
the high moral ground and these fifteen- or sixteen-year-olds are 
preparing to go out into the world and defend their views by bullying 
those who disagree with them or are less physically attractive, then 
heaven help the WW.

Dharma replies:

My ideas remain the same.  I objected to the assertion that morality 
does not enter young peoples' conflicts. Morality matters to young 
people in some situations, and this could have impacted the way James 
and Snape were viewed by their peers.  We need look no further than 
the way Harry is treated in OotP to understand that morality is an 
issue for young people.  Some students ostracize Harry, while 
operating under the false impression that Haerry is lying about the 
return of the most dangerous Wizard in their history.  Although the 
false impression is largely constructed, these are the politics of 
their times as the students understand them.   Other students come to 
embrace what Harry is saying because, they believe that the 
possibility of Voldemort returning could have devastating 
consequences from which they'd like to defend themselves.   
Unfortunately, we are not given the same kind of window into the 
Marauders school days.   We don't know what conversations they were 
having.


As to other students' opinions about James
A bright, popular, 15-year-
old could be arrogant and obnoxious at times in dealing with his or 
her peers.  I don't like it, but it happens.  Being full of oneself 
and insensitive at one moment does not constitute anyone's entire 
life.   The process of moral development is not a straight line 
toward perfection.  Many of the "good" characters in the books have 
occasional moral failings.  

James and Snape could have made their feelings known at times other 
than what we see.  When violence and disappearances are on the rise, 
there is a problem.  The students in the pensieve scene have family 
members and their own futures to think about, but the readers are 
never privy to any direct conversation that they may have had during 
school.  The Dark Arts and pureblood prejudice were community issues 
by the Marauder's 5th year.  It is quite possible that young people 
had political beliefs based on their own life experiences and family 
histories at this time. Now personally, I'm not willing to rule out 
the possibility that the students did have strong feelings about what 
was happening outside of Hogwarts, just as the kids in OotP had 
opinions about the return of Voldemort.     

What we know about the politics of this time are fractions of what 
was happening.  What we see in the pensieve is a fraction of what the 
students would have witnessed at that time.  James' behavior toward 
someone he's been in conflict with for 5 years for unknown reasons 
does not seem like a good measure of his overall morality to me.  His 
peers more than likely had a range of experiences with him and 
knowledge that we the readers do not.  They could have had 
information that we don't, so therefore I'm willing to leave the 
possibility of James taking a stance on the political issues of the 
times open.

When it comes down to it James may have acted like jerk more than 
once, but the only person who consistently insists that this was the 
sum of his personality is Snape, who is unable to let go of a grudge 
that could be based on any number of things almost 20 years later.  
Perhaps the fundamental beliefs that led James to choosing to become 
a member of the Order and Snape to joining the Death Eaters all came 
about in the 2 to 3 year period between the pensieve and entering the 
adult world, but I personally doubt it.  Even at 15 Snape is hurling 
around the word Mudblood and James finds it to inappropriate to let 
it pass his lips.