envy vs. jealousy?

[justcarol67]

No: HPFGUIDX 116244


Kathi wrote:
> > There is a thin line between envy and jealousy, but I always seem
to get them mixed up.  On one hand, one of the emotions is basically
wanting what  someone else has, but not necessarily begrudging them
for having it <snip> On the other hand,however, you want what the
other has, you don't want them to have it at all, and you think they
didn't deserve to have it in the first place, but *you* do....
<snip>

Paul replied:
<snip>
>      Jealousy is the feeling of anger or bitterness which someone
has when they think that another person is trying to take a lover or
friend, or a possession, away from them . . . [or when] they wish that
they could have the qualities or possessions that another person has.
>      		
> 	Envy is the feeling you have when you wish you could have the same
thing or quality that someone else has. If you envy someone, you wish
that you had the same things or qualities that they have.
> 		
> From the above is quite clear that in GOF and in general Ron is
rather jealous than envious as a person.

Carol responds:
The source of these definitions is unclear, but it appears that you
think the difference between jealousy and anger is "the feeling of
anger or bitterness" associated with jealousy and that you associate
this feeling with Ron. But note that at least part of your definition
of jealousy has no application to Ron, at least in relation to Harry.
Clearly he does not think that *Harry* is "trying to take a lover or
friend or possession away from him" (although I do think Ron feels
this way about *Viktor Krum* taking Hermione away in GoF. Ironically,
it's *Krum* who thinks that Harry is trying to take Hermione away from
him! Boys will be boys, I guess. And we see some jealousy of other
girls from Hermione, but that's a topic for another post.)

I would also argue that both Harry and Ron display envy as you define
it: Harry wishes he had a family like Ron's and had some sort of
normal life; Ron wishes he didn't have to worry about money and envies
Harry's indifference to a pocket full of gold. (He also envies his
older brothers' accomplishments and hopes to emulate them, as we see
in the Mirror of Erised.)

Although Hermione suggests that Ron is "jealous" of Harry after the
GoF incident, Ron's "bitterness and anger" stem not from Harry's
greater abilities (which Ron has never denied) but from Harry's
refusal to explain how he got across the age line. Harry's "I didn't!"
is hardly an adequate explanation. He needs to trust Ron and tell him
what "Moody" said, that someone is trying to kill him. Surely he
should know by now that Ron would believe him. (No doubt Ron would
suspect Snape and we'd have SS/PS all over again.) But Harry remains
silent and Ron feels excluded and hurt ("bertayed," to use Del's term).

But let's look at some actual dictionary definitions from
Merriam-Webster to see if these arguments still apply:

Envy: painful or resentful awareness of an advantage enjoyed by
another joined with a desire to possess the same advantage

Jealousy, a jealous disposition, attitude, or feeling, 

that is, the state of being 

1 a: intolerant of rivalry or unfaithfulness b: disposed to suspect
rivalry or unfaithfulness 2: hostile toward a rival or one believed to
enjoy an advantage

Surely Ron's desire to be like Harry, with money and fame and a chance
to compete in the TWT all fall under envy, not jealousy, and usually
the "painful" awareness is more apparent than the resentment. As for
actual jealousy as defined here, we have not seen him viewing Harry as
a rival or seeing Hermione as "unfaithful" to him regarding Harry (he
does resent her apparent affection for *Krum*, which would qualify as
jealousy in the sense of rivalry for Hermione's affections, but he
doesn't yet understand his own feelings).

I suppose that his anger at Harry in GoF *could* be interpreted using
the secondary definition of jealousy, "hostil[ity] toward . . . one
believed to enjoy an advantage," that is, the dubious "advantage" of
being chosen by the Goblet of Fire, but since the hostility occurs
only after Harry refuses to explain how he crossed the age line, I
don't think that's the case. Ron *envies* Harry for being chosen by
the Goblet and wants to know how he did it. His anger results from a
sense that he has been, if not actually lied to, at least willfullly
excluded from a secret that Harry ought to have shared with him. It's
a big misunderstanding, not at all indicative of Ron's usual attitude
to Harry, and we see the real Ron, whose loyalty exceeds his envy,
reappear after the First Task when he fears for Harry's life and
abandons the stubborn pride that has kept him from apologizing--much
as Harry has stubbornly refused to speak to Ron until he makes that
apology.

The problem, as I see it, arises from Hermione's "helpful" suggestion
that Ron is jealous when she means envious, and her overlooking of the
real issue, which is Ron's sense of exclusion from Harry's secret,
which, as a friend who has shared many perils with Harry and has
loyally followed him into many dangers, he (rightly) feels entitled to
know. IMO, Hermione's, and JKR's, misuse of the word of the word
"jealous" contributes to a misunderstanding of Ron, not only in this
one incident but throughout the books.

Carol, once again arguing for the importance of precise diction (word
choice) by authors and posters