Re: Hands up, who’s been possessed? (long)

[templar1112002]

No: HPFGUIDX 116355


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "dungrollin" 
<spotthedungbeetle at h...> wrote:
> 
> Dungrollin:
> > The biggest problem with Ginny's (so-called) 
> > possessions, is that she doesn't remember anything 
> > about them. Which has led many to
> > believe that either the possession was of a 
> > different nature to those effected by present-day 
> > Voldy, or that she wasn't truly possessed.
> 
> Geoff:
> However, she believes that she was....
> 
> <snip>
> "Well, can you remember everything you've been doing?" Ginny 
> asked. "Are there big blank periods where you don't what you've 
> been up to?"
> Harry racked his brains.
> "No," he said.
> "Then You-Know-Who hasn't ever possessed you," said Ginny 
> simply.'
> 
> (OOTP "Christmas on the Closed Ward" pp.441-442 UK edition)
> 
> A bit more ammunition for your case?
> 
> 
> Dungrollin:
> 
> (The following is highly speculative.)
> 
> Sorry, I was being too concise.  Yes, Ginny believes she was 
> possessed, however, her experience was nothing like Harry's, 
> in that she remembers nothing about it. (This is irritating. 
> We have no memories of pain, or of what it felt like in general, 
> for us to compare with Harry's experience). And the assumption 
> that she knows what it feels like is thus a red herring, IMO. 


******Actually, in CoS, Ginny says this:
"...'Harry --oh, Harry-- I tried to tell you at b-breakfast, but I c-
*couldn't* say it in front of Percy --it was me, Harry --but I  --I 
s-swear I d-didn't mean to --R-Riddle made me, he t-took me over --
and --how did you kill that --that thing?  W-Where's Riddle?  The 
last thing I r-remember is him coming out of the diary --' ..." CoS 
page 323, h/c SE, the *couldn't* is in italics in original.

That gives us an idea that she suspected of Tom and his intentions, 
she had tried to get rid off the diary before, afterall.  I'm not 
sure why she says that she doesn't remember of Tom's possessions in 
OoTP...
 



Dungrollin (cont'd):

> *How* could Diary!Tom creating a body through stealing Ginny's 
> soul have strengthened the present-day Voldemort considerably?
> 
> There would have been the body of a 16-year-old Riddle, with 
> whatever was in the diary controlling it.  How could that have 
> helped Vapo!Mort?  Possessing the new alive Riddle would surely 
> have resulted in the death of that body too, as it did for 
> Quirrell and the animals.
> 
> Unless... Well, we don't know *why* possession is lethal.  The 
> conflict of having two different souls in one body, perhaps?  
> If the new Riddle had a duplicate of LV's soul, then perhaps 
> Vapo!Mort could have possessed him with no ill-effects.  
> 
> Alternatively, if what was in the diary really was just 
> memories, perhaps the new Riddle would not have had a soul at 
> all, so Vapo!Mort could have moved in sans problème.  This makes 
> more sense to me, I doubt that LV would have duplicated his soul 
> (if such a thing can be done at all) and put a copy in the 
> diary; too great a possibility for competition, too high a 
> chance of it falling into the wrong hands and being used against 
> him.
> 
> So what was Diary!Tom, and what was Vapo!Mort?  How could 
> Diary!Tom create a body using Ginny's soul?  And while we're
> at it, where do a wizard's powers reside, anyway?  In his mind, 
> body or soul?
> 
> If Vapo!Mort was LV's soul, then it is the soul that is able to 
> possess another body, which would imply that the soul is where
> the other magical powers reside, too.  However, Voldy says in 
> the graveyard scene that he lost his powers *and* his body – but 
> if he were bodiless and thus unable to use a wand, then, in 
> effect, losing his body did lose him all his other powers too.  
> Apart from the ability to possess.  For which, apparently, you 
need 
> only a soul.  (Evidently, it doesn't require a wand and an 
> incantation.)
> 
> Why is LV the only character (AFAWK) who can possess other 
> beings?  Did one of his experiments involve loosening the ties 
> between body and soul, and is that how he gained the ability to 
> possess in the first place?
> 
> Am I grabbing at straws?  Has someone cleverer than me thought 
> this through before?
>


******Riddle was becoming more and more solid as time went by down 
at the Chamber, so I believe that Riddle would have gained his 
teenager's body back, he says so in page 310 of CoS:

"...'So Ginny poured out her soul to me, and her soul happened to be 
exactly what I wanted... I grew stronger and stronger on a diet of 
her deepest fears, her darkest secrets.  I grew powerful, far more 
powerful than little Miss Weasley.  Powerful enough to start feeding 
Miss Weasley a few of *my* secrets, to start pouring a little of 
*my* soul back into *her*...' ..." the (*) mean italics in the 
original.

According to this, diary!Riddle had a soul, which was becoming more 
powerful because Ginny was losing hers.
Now, back to your question of why did Jo say that diary!Riddle would 
have strenghthened VaporMort.  I believe that on one side, you have 
a fully-bodied-powerful-teenager *with* his soul, and on the other 
you have a bodyless-weak-souless-entity that only has memories and 
the power of possession as assets... add both and you get a powerful 
Voldemort.  When VaporMort possesses animals and Quirrel, he is sort 
of 'fighting' with their souls, when he tried with Harry, he felt 
very repulsed of Harry's feelings, he had to leave that body... with 
his 16 year old clone, that fight would not happen, on the contrary, 
it would be welcomed.

Marcela