Timetravel again? Was: Re: Dumbledore

[tylerswaxlion]

No: HPFGUIDX 116608




CHANCIE:
 
Sorry I was unclear in my meaning.  I mean, that Buckbeak didn't 
die, because Harry and Hermione figured out that they had saved him 
the previous time.  
But they were not forced to follow the same actions.  If they had 
decided to let Buckbeak die the second time around, then they were 
free to do so. 
----

Tyler:  I agree with this--they are free to choose.  People always 
have free will.  However, knowing Harry and Hermione, we know that 
they will choose to save Buckbeak if they can.  

More than that, b/c Buckbeak lives, we *can* know H&H save him 
before they do it.  They made free choices, but Dumbledore already 
knows they will succeed in freeing Buckbeak before they do it.  
Because they already DID do it.  The "second time around" was ONLY 
for H&H, and it's only their PERCEPTION.  The TIME happened once.

JKR tries very hard to make this clear by having Harry explain it 
all in the end.  Harry *knows* he can cast a real Patronus b/c he 
ALREADY did it.  Harry does it "later" in HarryTime, but he'd 
already done it in reality--and saw himself do it. 

The only reason there is any confusion is b/c of time travel, which 
is so often done badly and illogically.  There are no multiple lines 
in this book.  This is not Star Trek or Back to the Future--which 
while entertaining are impossible paradoxes (and BTTF even breaks 
its own rules.

Topic!  We know Harry and Hermione save Buckbeak b/c they already 
did it.  The time happened once.  H&H happen twice.  The "later" to 
them is NOT actually later, but earlier.  

--------- 
Chancie:  When someone is time-turning, they aren't puppets forced 
to replay events and change things.  Or it would be imposible for a 
wizard to go back in time and kill him/herself, as Hermione tells 
Harry.  Time is change-able!!!!  Or else Hermione wouldn't be warned 
not to "change time", or have said "there must be something that 
happend around now that he want's us to ****CHANGE****"  

----------

Tyler:  No, Chancie, no.  Hermione even claims at the end of PoA 
that she's not sure--HERMIONE DOESN'T FOLLOW IT.  Harry gets it--he 
really UNDERSTANDS time-travel.  And even though Hermione has time 
travelled all year, she has trouble reconciling her rules with the 
reality.

Hermione was warned not to try to "change" things.  That bad things 
can happen.  She was given rules, and Hermione LIKES rules and 
generally wants to obey them.  And rules are a good idea--as 
discussed, seeing yourself is likely to make you think some evil 
magic is afoot.  Bad things *can* happen, so it's better not to 
tempt fate--if you're time-travelling DON'T BE SEEN.

If you could really change things, then why did Hermione miss 
Charms?  If it's a multiple line/changable past, then why doesn't 
she just go back and do it?  B/c she CAN'T.  Harry and Ron have 
reported that she missed it.  Hermione can go back as much as she 
likes, and still have free will, but will still miss Charms b/c TIME 
HAPPENS ONCE.  

And that's a danger, too.  She could spend years of her life turning 
back hours trying to get into that class, but *something* thwarts 
her--and we know she's thwarted if she tries b/c SHE WASN'T THERE.

But, for argument's sake, let's suppose it IS a multi-timeline world 
with changing pasts.  We still know from what Rowling wrote that 
that is NOT what happens in PoA.

H&H do not live through a time without any time-travel.  They would 
be dead if Future!Harry hadn't cast the Patronus.  From Harry's pov, 
he is attacked by Dementors and then 3 hours later he chases the 
Dementors away.  ****From any other pov, Harry is being attacked at 
THE SAME TIME as Harry is casting the Patronus.*****  

That's what time travel means.  It means you travel in TIME.  And if 
you go back in time, then you were always back in time.  You don't 
go back and CHANGE things, b/c you *already* CHANGED them.  

Sure, H&H were "free" not to save Buckbeak, but we know they did, 
and therein lies the paradox.  It's like if you read the end of the 
book first.  The characters still "behave" as though they are free, 
but you know how it will end b/c you skipped ahead.  In effect, you 
time travel through the book.

Dumbledore doesn't send the kids out to CHANGE the past--he KNOWS 
Buckbeak escaped.  He understands that the kids time-travelled--he 
figured it out--and he HOPES they can save Sirius, too.

Regardless of what Hermione says or what she was told, we read what 
happened.  More than that JKR makes HARRY explain it again at the 
end.  He knew he could cast the Patronus this time b/c he had done 
it "before".  And he knew that the "before" was now "now".

Could have have chosen not to cast it?  Sure, but Harry would never 
choose to let himself, Hermione, and Sirius die.