Survival of AK (was: Re: Harry's protection)

[snow15145]

No: HPFGUIDX 113490


GEO:
 
What was used at GH was hardly a countercharm. It was a wide
> blanketing protection against Voldemort and his powers created by
> the act of Voldemort killing Lily. Countercharms and curses are
more
> like spells that are spoken or used by the wand. What happened
there
> was more of an unconscious magical act by Lily and definitely not
a
> countercharm or curse.
>
> > If this were true then whatever killing curse was used (on
Harry)
> at
> > GH could not have been an AK, which cannot be countered.
>
> GEO: And the spell wasn't countered. Remember it left a scar on
> Harry and rebounded and destroyed Voldemort's body and quite a bit
> of the house.

Mac replied:

AK *has* been 'countered' - three times by Dumbledore at the climax
of OotP - despite what Barty Jr!Moody said in GoF about its being
unblockable:

First, the wizard statue gets in the way to protect Harry (and
subsequently pushes him out of the way of the 'high noon' scene
between DD and LV).

Then, a 2nd AK from LV (at DD) hits the security guard's desk and
blitzes it (like the destruction in GH but unlike the idea from Ch.1
GoF that AK 'leaves no mark').

The last (3rd AK) is swallowed by Fawkes, who dies as a result, but
this is OK because he can regenerate (intersting btw since Fawkes
gave the feather that allowed this spell to be produced!).

All of this shows, and not for for the first time (since HP avoids
LV's AK by virtue of an intervening headstone in the graveyard scene
of GoF), that the 'unblockable' curse is, in fact, countered three
times, albeit by the most powerful wizard ever (DD I mean, though
you can substitute HP as possibly being even more powerful, not LV) -
the chapter is called 'the only one he ever feared' - though this
may mean HP take on LV rather than LV's on DD (or even HP?).
	
Snow replying to Mac's rebuttal evidence:
	
I don't believe that any of the instances you quoted were countering 
the AK, or killing curse, but I do see how your examples were 
shielding the curse. (I guess there is a difference) Crouch Jr. said 
that there was no countercurse but he never said that it could not be 
shielded. So although the AK may not be countered, it can be 
shielded. I still think Lily used a shield charm of protection like 
the protego charm that Harry used against Snape during Occlumency 
(difference being she used herself as the shield of protection, hence 
the blood protection). The effect, if Lily had used this same type 
charm, could have had somewhat the same effect as in the lesson with 
Snape except that Harry retained the part of Voldemort that rebounded 
(like Snape's memory). 

Voldemort clearly did not protect his mortal body with his endeavors 
to insure immortality. The killing curse ripped Voldemort from his 
body but his soul, or being, was protected through his attempts at 
assuring himself immortality. If you look back at the incident in 
Occlumency with Snape, Snape says `ENOUGH' before his memories, that 
Harry is viewing, are returned to him which left Snape shaking 
slightly and white in the face as if it were an effort. Harry also 
had a staggering effect from this encounter. Voldemort's body would 
have been separated from Vodemort's being before he could have 
retaliated against Harry's protection to stop the process. With no 
body in which to perform the command, Harry retained part of 
Voldemort. This protego effect is only seen during the use of 
Legilemens from Snape on Harry therefore for this to be the effect 
that took place at GH, Voldemort would have had to be using 
Legilemens. I think it was...for several reasons: The constant 
reminder that there is something about Lily's eyes and Harry's (you 
need eye contact in Legilemency) along with the description of the 
effect that is produced when both spells are used. 

I don't see Voldemort intentionally killing Harry, at least not right 
off. You would think that power hungry Voldemort would have been at 
least a little curious as to what this `power' was or if this baby 
indeed had any powers at all before proceeding to kill the child. I'm 
going to base my suspicions that Voldemort was curious on Diary Tom's 
curiosity of meeting with Harry for the same reasons; to see if there 
was anything special about him. 

Voldemort was informed that an unknown seer had made a prophecy about 
him and a baby who has a power to vanquish him that will be born at 
the end of July, that's all he knows. Why would Voldemort take this 
bit of information so seriously as to set out `himself' and destroy 
the child? I think that it was just curiosity. I don't think 
Voldemort set out to kill Harry or his parents. This is why Voldemort 
said step aside to Lily; he just wanted to view the child, at first. 
If he found the baby to be a threat then he would kill him. What 
Voldemort saw when he finally looked at Harry (Legilemens) were 
Lily's eyes. 

Why would Voldemort, if he merely wanted the child dead, have gone 
himself to perform the task? Why take any risk if he thought the baby 
were a threat. Why not have one of his henchmen do the dirty deed. 
After all that's how Voldemort has always performed. Voldemort rarely 
kills anyone himself. Sirius said that Regulus was most likely killed 
on orders from Voldemort because Regulus wasn't important enough to 
have been killed by him. If you look at the priori incantatem, Cedric 
was killed by Pettigrew, Frank Bryce was killed by Voldy, Bertha was 
iffy as to who killed her because Voldy most likely did not have his 
body back at that point so again it was probably Pettigrew. Voldy 
killed Harry's father but Harry's mother didn't have to die, or so 
says Voldemort, but he did kill her in the end. The only other 
person(s) that have been thought to have been killed directly by 
Voldemort are his father and grandparents whom I still have my 
suspicions about even though Crouch Jr. states that Voldemort killed 
his father. One of Voldemort's newly acquired death eaters, as homage 
to his devotedness, would be more Voldy's style. I doubt that 
Voldemort would have seen his muggle father or grandparents as being 
important enough to be killed directly by him. Then there is Dorcas 
Meadowes who is the only person said to be killed by Voldemort 
himself from the picture of the original Order. Even Moaning Myrtle 
was not killed by Tom but by the basalisk. Voldemort normally sends 
someone to do his bidding. Voldemort doesn't like to kill he likes to 
use and control others to take his revenge. I doubt that Voldemort 
wanted to kill James or Lily either because they may be of some 
future use to him if he could control them, which he most likely made 
attempts at in the past (hence the defiance three times). In the case 
of baby Harry I feel that Voldemort was just led there by his own 
curiosity. It just doesn't fit the Voldemort type behavior for him to 
have taken the prophecy made by an `incompetent seer' seriously. If 
Voldemort had taken the baby as a serious threat he would not have 
been so calm as to ask Lily to step aside for any reason nor would he 
have put himself directly in danger by confronting a child that is 
said to have the power to destroy him. 

In conclusion, why would JKR have introduced the scene with Snape 
(Legilemens) and Harry (protego) when the memories Harry viewed were 
unimportant? If the memories were important Snape would have placed 
them in the pencieve previous to the lesson. After Snape's shocked 
encounter with Harry he viewed his thoughts that he had put in the 
pencieve earlier as if to check and see that `they' were still there. 

As we are all aware JKR introduces something only to refer to it 
later. I believe that this is the reason why we learned of the effect 
and affect of this scene. It was not to ponder on what Harry actually 
saw, which is the red herring, but how he obtained it and how Snape 
and Harry physically reacted to it. 

 Snow- who apologizes again for the late post but life keeps throwing 
those curve balls that always take president over what I would rather 
be doing