James and Snape. Was. Re: Snape and Harry again.

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 113823

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "potioncat" <willsonkmom at m...> 
wrote:
>  
> > Valky:
> the Shrieking Shack where Pettigrew pleads desperately 
> for  mercy. Now _that_ is snivelling where I come from. Does that 
> help?
> 
> 
> Potioncat:
> Bingo!  Now we are on the same page.  
> 
> Yes, without looking back myself, Peter was snivelling and I don't 
> think this is strictly a British definition.  So we are agreed on 
> this meaning of snivelling although we may see it differently on a 
> continuum of character... (and that may be individual differences 
> rather than cultural differences.) 


Valky:
You're probably entirely right there Potioncat, I guess I was 
working for a long time from the assumption that the Webster 
definition clearly excluded the Cambridge definitions and so too did 
the American language exclude them. 

>Potioncat: 
>
> Here is where you and I may have been confused about each other's 
> viewpoint.  For an adult or older teen to act this way is a 
> character flaw.  For a little child, or possibly an older child to 
> act this way is an annoying behavior that should be corrected.
> So, perhaps the Marauders call Severus that because he snivels for 
> help(?) when they are fighting, or because he tattles...is that 
your point? 

Valky:
Ummm, kind of. See the particular case of Pettigrew snivelling is a 
demonstration of a sort of complete character continuum where, as I 
have known the word to be used, it is fitting. 
So to say, that Pettigrew was confronted with the consequences of 
his own pathetic behaviour and compounded his wrongdoing with more 
weakness and unpleasantness. 
The difference you point to between adults and children is quite 
important, I agree. It takes a mature mind rightly assume that 
someone *snivelling* has, indeed, a need to face up to his own 
apathy and misconduct. This I will definately agree that Sirius and 
James probably didn't have so, as was written by Feklar or Alex (I 
think) in another response to this thread, we shouldn't necessarily 
think that they are right. 
Still I wonder, Sirius' passionate discourses reveal to me someone 
who felt as strongly against the injustices that he hates when he 
was a child as he does now. The main problem with Sirius getting his 
message across is that he is one-eyed and a hypocrite (both 
endearing and not endearing characteristics for me), not that he 
doesn't truly deeply believe in moral virtue when he is fifteen or 
when he is older. 



> Potioncat:
> Maybe how you and I see this differently is that you think the 
> Marauders are justified and he deserved the nickname.  I think 
they are being mean.  I don't know which it is, but I really like 
how clearly this scene changes based on preconceptions!
>

Valky:
As I said above, not really. I don't think so much that Snape 
deserved the nickname, but that it is revealed in Sirius passion for 
the righteousness that he upholds, that they probably have a much 
deeper issue with Snape than is revealed in the penseive scene. 



Potioncat: 
> Do you see any snivelling behavior in the Pensieve scene?  Or have 
> you seen adult Snape behave in a snivelling manner?
>  

Valky:
Umm I will definately get back to you on this because I don't see 
snivelling in the pensieve scene but I *think* there is some small 
thing of adult Snape, I will have to check it out.