Was Crouch Junior a DE? (was Re: ESE!Fudge)

[huntergreen_3]

No: HPFGUIDX 114234

Carol wrote:
>>First, Barty in the Pensieve scene is a nineteen-year-old boy being
guarded by Dementors, fiends that he knows can suck his soul away (a
premonition?). He's terrified and hysterical. Second, like most DEs,
he's probably a former Slytherin, and Slytherins, we're told, will use
any means to achieve their ends. Barty's "end," or objective, in this
instance is to be free, to avoid Azkaban and the Dementors at any
cost.<<

HunterGreen:
Or another Slytherin trait of always choosing to save themself. At 
that point, being a strong brave DE may have lost its appeal. He was 
rather young at the time (even compared to Bellatrix who wasn't old 
either), so perhaps he joined the DEs and didn't really think about 
getting caught (sort of like Regulus joining and finding out later 
what a bad idea it was). At the time of the pensieve, I don't think 
he was acting (lying, but not faking his emotions), but desparately 
trying to save himself. However, as Bookworm pointed out:

>>This is exactly what makes me question him being the "most
faithful". Lying to save his own skin (soul?) is understandable but
doesn't show much fidelity to his master. IMO, Bella is the one who
should get that description.<<

HunterGreen:
That action, unless its only a ploy to get himself released and find 
Voldemort is not all that loyal. However, since when does Voldemort 
always tell the truth? He was faced with a group of people who 
betrayed him and were *definitely* disloyal, he wanted to further 
highlight their deceit. Whether or not Barty Jr. was *truly loyal* at 
the time of his DE days is immaterial. Also, there's no way that 
Voldemort knew about that. Bellatrix is still in Azkaban at this 
point, and Voldemort has only been conversing with Wormtail, who 
wasn't there either. Unless Crouch Sr. told him (and I doubt the two 
of them had any deep conversations), he only knows what Barty Jr. has 
said and what he learned from Bertha, which is that Barty has been 
*unable* to leave the house and *unable* to contact Voldemort for ten 
years. And as soon as he's able, he does (including throwing the dark 
mark in the air), which would appear very loyal, even if that wasn't 
how he felt when he was arrested.


Carol:
>>Bellatrix, notice, *wants* credit for her evil deed. If Barty 
hadn't helped her to do it, I think she'd have spoken then and 
there: "Get this coward boy out of here. Rodolphus and Rabastan and I 
Crucio'd the Longbottoms. He had nothing to do with it." But she says 
nothing of the kind. In fact, she sets an example of unwavering 
fanatical loyalty to her master that he later follows.

Also, despite having spent a year dying in Azkaban and another twelve
years under the Imperius Curse, conditions under which he could not
have learned any new spells (or developed any new loyalties), Crouch,
when he recovers his own personality, is a fanatically devoted
follower whose first act after stealing Harry's wand is to cast a
Morsmordre (Dark Mark), a spell only a Death Eater would know how to
do. <<

HunterGreen:
As someone who originally was suggesting that it was possible that 
Barty Jr. wasn't a DE in the past, I see now that that's impossible. 
There is *no* way that Barty Jr. could have learned the dark mark 
unless he was a death eater at some point. However, I still cling to 
my belief that Barty was not *evil* before he spent ten years under 
the imperious curse (although its hard to defend being party to 
crucioing the Longbottoms, so perhaps I should just give in). I 
disagree, though, that his personality was the same after those ten 
years. He spent a decade hating his father more and more every day. 
Unable to act under his own will, hidden under an invisibilty cloak, 
never going outside, basically there being no point to his life at 
all. 
In GoF, he has an uncanny ability to impersonate Moody. Is that 
because he's a fantastic actor, or because he's been stripped of his 
own identity? The only bit of his actual personality we see is 
extreme anger at the free Death Eaters (true anger that they didn't 
see out Voldemort, or jealousy?), and his strange opinion of 
Voldemort. He thinks he's going to be honored above all other Death 
Eaters, being "closer than a son", when from what we've seen, 
Voldemort is not the type to treat *anyone* that way. I see him as 
being reduced to obsession and hate, and nothing else. Everything 
else was just him playing Moody (and furthering the Voldemort-
kidnapping-Harry plan). 

Carol:
>> In the face of the Dementors, cowardice overcame
fanaticism, but once he's away from the Dementors, fanatical loyalty
to Voldemort is his defining trait. <<

HunterGreen:
Again, that may have been a result of his ten-year imprisonment. Who 
else would he have to be loyal to? He's been rejected by regular 
society (by his own fault, nevertheless though, it gives him no 
reason to be loyal to them), and his father imprisoned him. Since 
serving Voldemort is the way he got into that mess, than serving 
Voldemort is the only way to get out of it. He could have gone either 
way, either hating Voldemort (and his allegiance to him) for ruining 
his life, or hating his father for the imprisonment and wanting to 
return to Voldemort who "accepts him".

>>Carol, who wonders if the Dementor who sucked his soul somehow
recognized him and realized that he and his fellow guards had been
deceived<<

Interesting theory. I never thought of that.