Narcissistic!Snape (was: Whither Snape?) [long!]

[cubfanbudwoman]

No: HPFGUIDX 127352


Betsy said:
> I don't think this means Snape is crazy. <snip> 
> I just don't want to take it to the extreme of "Snape got hit by 
> the crazy-stick" because I don't think Snape is crazy. <snip>
> Of all the people Snape could have picked as a father-figure, 
> Dumbledore is probably one of the best. And if you consider that 
> Snape more than likely placed first Lucius Malfoy and then 
> Voldemort into that role, I would say Snape is actually improving 
> himself.

SSSusan:
Apparently I'm not expressing myself as clearly as I hoped I was.  
First off, I never said – nor would I ever say – that a narcissist 
is "crazy."  Narcissism is a personality disorder [NPD]; it has 
nothing to do with being "crazy." Narcissists are not typically 
psychopaths, nor do they typically have psychotic breaks.  I did not 
say nor do I think Snape is "crazy."

I'm also not sure where the notion came from that a narcissist in 
general, or Snape in particular, is seeking a father figure.  If I 
could refer you back to my original post
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/127184 , I think 
you'll find that neither in that 4-paragraph excerpt I included, nor 
in my own words, did I ever say Snape is looking for father 
figures.  What I did say is that a narcissist craves external 
validation.  He craves positive feedback, positive attention, 
validation of himself.  This does not have to be a father figure.  
As Mara pointed out, for someone like Lockhart, he seems to crave 
this from *everyone,* but for someone like Snape, it may be 
particular individuals from whom he craves this.  Some narcissists 
crave attention for their looks; others for their intellect or 
achievements.  In neither instance is it a situation of wanting a 
father figure.  

Another key point is that narcissists are also not necessarily low-
functioning, as there is a *range* of impairment involved.  So, on 
the contrary, many narcissists get along quite nicely day to day, 
perhaps not in all aspects of their lives, but also perhaps in 
many.  I work with a woman who meets about 80% of the NPD 
qualifications, and she is intelligent, extremely talented, 
accomplished in some significant ways.  So I would never say Snape 
isn't intelligent, talented, and in many ways high-functioning.  The 
areas where we see *problems* for him, however, tend to match up 
well with key characteristics of those with NPD.  

Some further info, which may be of interest.  My comments can be 
found within [ ].

>From  http://www.ptypes.com/narcissisticpd.html :

The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, Fourth 
Edition (American Psychiatric Association, 1994, pg. 661) describes 
Narcissistic Personality Disorder as a pervasive pattern of 
grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack 
of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of 
contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following: 

*has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates 
achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior 
without commensurate achievements); 
*is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, 
brilliance, beauty, or ideal love; 
*believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be 
understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-
status people (or institutions); 
*requires excessive admiration; 
*has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of 
especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or 
her expectations; 
*is interpersonally exploitive, i.e., takes advantage of others to 
achieve his or her own ends; 
*lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the 
feelings and needs of others; 
*is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of 
him or her; 
*shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes. 

[Does Snape fit all of these categories?  Certainly not.  Does he 
fit several?  I believe so.]

Fears/ Distresses
*being scorned 
*being seen as common 
*being ordinary 
*being seen as inferior 
*failure 
*others not according them admiration and respect


>From http://www.bullyonline.org/workbully/npd.htm :

People with narcissistic personality disorder also have difficulty 
recognizing the needs and feelings of others, and are dismissive, 
contemptuous and impatient when others share or discuss their 
concerns or problems. They are also oblivious to the hurtfulness of 
their behaviour or remarks, show an emotional coldness and a lack of 
reciprocal interest, exhibit envy (especially when others are 
accorded recognition), have an arrogant, disdainful and patronizing 
attitude, and are quick to blame and criticise others when their 
needs and expectations are not met.

[A *lot* pops out at me here in terms of Snape's intereactions with 
his students, but "exhibit envy (especially when others are accorded 
recognition)" seems to fit particularly well with Harry.  Harry felt 
blindsided, I think, that first day of Potions class.  Argue any way 
you like, but Snape's assumptions about Harry & his behavior seemed 
way out of line in that scene to many readers, and I think this fits 
well with how a narcissist would "react" (or "act," I think more 
accurately) in the situation of being confronted with that KID who 
THINKS he's so SPECIAL.]


Consider also http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/dsm-iv.html :

*Characterized by aloofness and avoidance of intimacy
*Are very reluctant to open up and trust
*Narcissists' self-reports are unreliable 

[We have no evidence of this at this time, but IF Snape exaggerated 
the danger he was in during the prank, it would make DD's response 
of "My memory is as good as it ever was, Severus" a little more 
understandable, no?]

*Narcissists cultivate solipsistic or "autistic" fantasies, which is 
to say that they live in their own little worlds (and react with 
affront when reality dares to intrude). Narcissists think that 
everyone who is not special and superior is worthless. By 
definition, normal, ordinary, and average aren't special and 
superior, and so, to narcissists, they are worthless.
*Require excessive admiration -- excessive in two ways: they want 
praise, compliments, deference, and expressions of envy all the 
time, and they want to be told that everything they do is better 
than what others can do.  

[Potions *master,* anyone?]

*In clinical terms, empathy is the ability to recognize and 
interpret other people's emotions. Lack of empathy may take two 
different directions: (a) accurate interpretation of others' 
emotions with no concern for others' distress, which is 
characteristic of psychopaths; and (b) the inability to recognize 
and accurately interpret other people's emotions, which is the NPD 
style.

[Hermione's teeth and "I see no difference," anyone?  You don't have 
to think he was deliberately choosing to show no concern, if you 
don't like; it can be a matter of his inability to accurately 
interpret how upset Hermione was.]

 
Betsy:
> A question I have is, how do we know Snape *isn't* succeeding in
> teaching Harry what he feels Harry needs to know? I still contend
> that Snape has done a *much* better job at teaching Harry Potions
> than he's been given credit for - and I think Harry's Potion OWL
> will bare this out. As to other lessons, since we're not sure what
> those lessons might be, it's hard to judge.

SSSusan:
I *so* don't want this to turn into yet another Snape's a good 
teacher/Snape's a bad teacher discussion :-), but I will try to 
briefly make a couple of points here.  

1) The former teacher in me blanches a bit at this.  I, too, think 
Harry did better on his OWL than he/we would have expected.  BUT  
there is an important difference for me between a) doing better than 
people will have thought and *in spite of* the teacher and b) a 
student reaching his most full potential;

2) Other lessons/information:  occlumency, things he might need to 
know about Voldy, ways of defending himself – things Snape may well 
be privy to from his time as a DE.

As I've said before, in ordinary times with an ordinary kid, I'd be 
more inclined to say, "Yeah, well" about Snape.  But with the future 
of the Wizarding World at stake and Prophecy Boy as the subject of 
the discussion, it *matters* that you make the distinction 
between "learning well enough in spite of the teacher" 
and "achieving his full potential."  So seeing Snape as a narcissist 
helps me understand *why* he might not be able to bring himself to 
change for Harry or even for The Cause.


>>SSSusan:
>...his outrage over the lost Order of Merlin...<

Betsy:
> I've always thought Lupin was stretching the truth on this one
 
> [The] idea [is] so far out of whack with the Severus Snape we've 
> met in the books that I think Lupin is making a sly dig.... 

SSSusan:
But we SEE the behavior for ourselves.  Snape screams, he shrieks, 
he howls, we see the spit flying from his mouth!  We hear Fudge 
characterize Snape afterwards as unbalanced.  It's not Lupin we're 
relying upon for this.  And my point is really that this SEEMS out 
of character because Snape is going ballistic over a perceived 
slight or a disappointment.  That's what narcissists do! See points 
above about narcissists having a sense of entitlement and of craving 
admiration, AND the fact that they may "react with hurt or rage when 
these expectations are frustrated" ( 
http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/dsm-iv.html ).  Remember, he may 
be able to function well, to keep some of the "worst of it" from 
showing much of the time, but when faced with the huge 
disappointment, he can't help himself.

If I'm wrong, and Snape's actually reacting to Sirius' escape more 
than the loss of the OoM, fine; but what I've presented is also one 
way of reading it and getting to the behavior we see demonstrated by 
Snape.  

Again, I'm not saying anyone else has to buy into this model.  *I* 
find it makes sense of some behaviors of Snape's that I *couldn't* 
make sense of before I considered it.  

OTOH, I think one has to give the definitions/characteristics of NPD 
a real look before considering it bunk, rather than just 
thinking "narcissism = crazy" or "narcissism = extreme vanity."  
It's more complex than that.  One has to get away from the notion 
that a narcissist is STURDY individual with a healthy, positive 
ego.  There *is* an inflated ego presented to the world, and an  
arrogance.  But it's an overcompensating, it's a masking a self-
image which, while positive, is FRAGILELY so.  In my mind anyway, 
the NPD reading makes for a more understandable -- simpler, if you 
will, in the end -- reading of the character of Snape.


Siriusly Snapey Susan