Narcissistic!Snape (was: Whither Snape?) [long!]

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 127362


>>SSSusan:
>Apparently I'm not expressing myself as clearly as I hoped I was. 
First off, I never said – nor would I ever say – that a narcissist 
is "crazy."  Narcissism is a personality disorder [NPD]; it has 
nothing to do with being "crazy." Narcissists are not typically 
psychopaths, nor do they typically have psychotic breaks.  I did not 
say nor do I think Snape is "crazy."<

Betsy:
I wasn't responding to you, SSSusan, more trying to head off other 
folks who might take this idea and run with it.  Though a 
personality disorder does suggest a certain amount of instability.  
A person is held hostage, to a certain extent, by their disease, and 
anything in their environment that might trigger a reaction. (That's 
my understanding, at least.)  I think Snape has more control than 
that.

>>SSSusan:
>I'm also not sure where the notion came from that a narcissist in 
general, or Snape in particular, is seeking a father figure.<
<snip>

Betsy:
I'm the one who raised that idea, I think.  Though I didn't link it 
to NPD (or didn't mean to, anyway).  It was the one way I could 
agree that Snape does seek a certain amount of validation.  However, 
if that negates the NPD theory then I'm less inclined to agree with 
that particular diagnosis, because I do think Snape does look to 
Dumbledore as a type of father figure.  I think Snape, with his not 
so great homelife, had been looking for a father figure when he fell 
in with Lucius Malfoy, and later on with Voldemort.  The fact that 
he was able to pull away from both men and turn towards Dumbledore 
suggests a certain sense of healthy self-worth I'm not sure Snape 
would have if he had such an unhealthy craving for validation.

>>SSSusan:
>What I did say is that a narcissist craves external validation.  He 
craves positive feedback, positive attention, validation of 
himself.  This does not have to be a father figure. As Mara pointed 
out, for someone like Lockhart, he seems to crave this from 
*everyone,* but for someone like Snape, it may be particular 
individuals from whom he craves this.<
<snip>

Betsy:
But, again, if Snape was this emotionally needy I'm not sure how 
he'd have ever escaped Voldemort's clutches.  Voldemort is an 
*expert* at mental manipulation, and I'm sure he wouldn't have 
missed Snape's vulnerability.  Neither would Dumbledore, for that 
matter.  And, again, if Snape was this open to manipulation, I don't 
think Dumbledore would have put so much trust in Snape.  (A trust 
Snape still holds at the close of OotP.)

>>SSSusan:
<snip of diagnostic list that I promise I did read through. *g*> 
>[A *lot* pops out at me here in terms of Snape's intereactions with 
his students, but "exhibit envy (especially when others are accorded 
recognition)" seems to fit particularly well with Harry.  Harry felt 
blindsided, I think, that first day of Potions class.  Argue any way 
you like, but Snape's assumptions about Harry & his behavior seemed 
way out of line in that scene to many readers, and I think this fits 
well with how a narcissist would "react" (or "act," I think more 
accurately) in the situation of being confronted with that KID who 
THINKS he's so SPECIAL.]<

Betsy:
Or the reaction of Snape when confronted with a kid who closely 
resembles the boy who sexually humiliated him and then nearly killed 
him.  Or confronted with a kid that showing an iota of friendliness 
to would out his role as spy on the DEs.  We the readers are fully 
aware of how much Harry hates the spotlight.  Snape is not.  And, 
frankly, after seeing James as a boy it's apparent why Snape made 
the assumptions he did.

If there was no personal history between Snape and Harry's father, I 
could see the NPD argument, but there's so *much* history between 
them I don't think Snape's various motivations can be so easily 
swept aside.

>>SSSusan: 
>Consider also http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/dsm-iv.html :
>*Characterized by aloofness and avoidance of intimacy
>*Are very reluctant to open up and trust
>*Narcissists' self-reports are unreliable 
>[We have no evidence of this at this time, but IF Snape exaggerated 
the danger he was in during the prank, it would make DD's response 
of "My memory is as good as it ever was, Severus" a little more 
understandable, no?]<

Betsy:
Of course that would also negate the whole "life-debt" thing.  And 
James would loose some of his "hero" points, yes?  Plus, a certain 
amount of aloofness and lack of trust is fairly typical of a spy in 
a cold war situation.

>>SSSusan:
>*Require excessive admiration -- excessive in two ways: they want 
praise, compliments, deference, and expressions of envy all the 
time, and they want to be told that everything they do is better 
than what others can do.  
>[Potions *master,* anyone?]<

Betsy:
Right, this one I do not understand.  Snape is the Potions Master.  
That's his title.  Is Lupin being excessive when he calls 
himself "Professor"?  Should Dumbledore not be refered to 
as "Headmaster"?  Master is often the title given to teachers within 
the British school system.  All of my father's teachers were called 
Master in his school in Canada where they followed the British 
system.  (And woe betide any boy who did not give a Master his due.)

The other teachers at Hogwarts are known as "professor", IIRC, but I 
think that just suggests that Snape had further education to earn 
his title (probably in apprenticeship to another Potions Master).  
If his title were not earned I think the other teachers would mock 
Snape a bit.  I also think JKR would mock Snape's false title, just 
as she did with Lockhart's supposed expertise.  

>>SSSusan:
>*In clinical terms, empathy is the ability to recognize and 
interpret other people's emotions. Lack of empathy may take two 
different directions: (a) accurate interpretation of others' 
emotions with no concern for others' distress, which is 
characteristic of psychopaths; and (b) the inability to recognize 
and accurately interpret other people's emotions, which is the NPD 
style.
>[Hermione's teeth and "I see no difference," anyone?  You don't 
have to think he was deliberately choosing to show no concern, if 
you don't like; it can be a matter of his inability to accurately 
interpret how upset Hermione was.]<

Betsy:
Oh, I think Snape knew exactly what he was doing when he made that 
comment.  It goes towards his nastiness.  It was cruel, but it saved 
Snape from having to punish Draco for throwing a hex in the hallway, 
and angered Harry and Ron enough that Snape *could* punish them 
without acknowledging a fight that would have had young Malfoy 
serving a detention too.  I'm quite sure Snape was fully aware of 
the emotions involved.  (Though I don't think Snape is a psychopath, 
just a Slytherin.)

>>SSSusan: 
<snip>
>1) The former teacher in me blanches a bit at this.  I, too, think 
Harry did better on his OWL than he/we would have expected.  BUT 
there is an important difference for me between a) doing better than 
people will have thought and *in spite of* the teacher and b) a 
student reaching his most full potential;<

Betsy:
See, I think Harry did well on his OWL *because* of Snape, not in 
spite of him.  Harry didn't study and learn potions because he had a 
love of the subject and wouldn't let Snape turn him off.  He studied 
so that Snape wouldn't have anything to sneer at him over, and 
because if Harry didn't study Snape would have made his life an 
*even more* living hell.  Plus, after the tension of Snape's 
classroom, the test itself was a breeze.  Again, that is *because* 
of Snape.  (And honestly, if Harry finds himself in a position where 
he needs to brew up an antidote, quick, he'd better be used to 
working under pressure. *g*)

>>SSSusan: 
>2) Other lessons/information:  occlumency, things he might need to 
know about Voldy, ways of defending himself – things Snape may well 
be privy to from his time as a DE.<
<snip>

Betsy:
And *I* don't want to get into another Occlumency argument. :)  
Though I still think Harry didn't learn occlumency because Harry 
didn't want to learn occlumency.  I doubt Lupin would have fared 
much better.

As to the others, Snape did "force" his students to learn antidotes, 
he's not allowed to teach DADA, and Snape would *never* share 
tidbits on any of the DEs (or Voldemort for that matter) unless 
specifically told to do so by Dumbledore.  That's just good spycraft 
(another controversial subject *g*).
 
>>SSSusan:
>...his outrage over the lost Order of Merlin...<
 
>>Betsy:
>I've always thought Lupin was stretching the truth on this one

[The] idea [is] so far out of whack with the Severus Snape we've met 
in the books that I think Lupin is making a sly dig....< 

>>SSSusan:
>But we SEE the behavior for ourselves.  Snape screams, he shrieks, 
he howls, we see the spit flying from his mouth!<
<snip>

Betsy:
How does that have anything to do with the Order of Merlin?  Snape 
is furious because Sirius Black, the man who tried to kill him while 
they were students, escaped his retribution, again, with the help of 
a Potter, again. (Harry, this time.)  We hear nothing about the 
Order of Merlin until the next morning, from Lupin, who has a very 
good reason to make a very sly dig against Snape.

Again, if there wasn't a personal history here, I could maybe go for 
the NPD diagnosis. (Though the Order of Merlin is *never* mentioned 
by Snape, Fudge, or Dumbledore during the entire screaming scene.)  
But Snape is almost reliving some of his most painful memories 
filled with Marauders escaping justice.  It's not strange at all 
(once we have a further understanding of the history at work here) 
that Snape so completely loses it.

>>SSSusan:
<snip> 
>Again, I'm not saying anyone else has to buy into this model.  *I* 
find it makes sense of some behaviors of Snape's that I *couldn't* 
make sense of before I considered it.  
>OTOH, I think one has to give the definitions/characteristics of 
NPD a real look before considering it bunk, rather than just 
thinking "narcissism = crazy" or "narcissism = extreme vanity." It's 
more complex than that.  One has to get away from the notion that a 
narcissist is STURDY individual with a healthy, positive ego.  There 
*is* an inflated ego presented to the world, and an arrogance.  But 
it's an overcompensating, it's a masking a self-image which, while 
positive, is FRAGILELY so.  In my mind anyway, the NPD reading makes 
for a more understandable -- simpler, if you will, in the end -- 
reading of the character of Snape.<

Betsy:
I hope I don't come across as too quickly dismissive.  I did read 
through the research you've done.  But the problem with the NPD 
diagnosis, as I see it, is that we are not seeing Snape in a 
vacuum.  Snape has been reminded of a fairly ugly personal history 
since Harry came to Hogwarts.  Several of his reactions are less 
than fully stable, but I think there are several understandable 
reasons behind Snape's reactions.  

I wonder what Snape was like before all of his demons popped out of 
the woodwork and settled in for a nice long visit.  I'm sure he was 
still a strict, scary, Slytherin-favoring, bastard (especially in 
the beginning when many of the students were close to his own age) 
but I'm betting he was a bit more evenhanded in how he spread his 
vitriol and sarcasm about the classroom. 

The fact that Snape turned from Voldemort to Dumbledore at a time 
when Voldemort was winning the war, the fact that Snape left his 
friends to join with his enemies because he realized his friends 
were wrong all point to a strength of character I'm not sure NPD 
allows for.

Betsy, whose original post was lost by Yahoo!mort, and had to retype 
this *whole* thing. :(