Narcissistic!Snape (was: Whither Snape?) [long!]

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 127405


>>Nora: 
>Okay; from Snape's perspective, James is a direct participant.  From 
Snape's perspective, it seems that everything done to him is due to 
be paid back in full to the next generation, as well.<

Betsy:
I would say Snape would prefer to see his attempted murderers 
punished, yes. Generally, the desire for justice is a fairly common 
human trait.  Not sure what you mean about "next generation".  Snape 
worries that Harry may share some of his father's less than desirable 
traits.  I haven't seen anything suggesting Snape thinks Harry should 
pay for his father's sins. (If that was the case, I'd think a long 
drop from a bucking broom would have served nicely.)

>>Nora: 
>But let's not go further into talking about the Prank, because I 
don't buy your scenario or anyone else's at the moment.  All are 
equally unlikely from the current perspective.<

Betsy:
I'm afraid the Prank is too important to Snape to so easily dismiss.  
Especially when talking *about* Snape.  I'm also curious as to how 
you can judge my scenario of the Prank when I've never actually 
shared it.  I was talking about how *Snape* perceived it.  I doubt he 
has the correct view on it (the players rarely do, caught up in their 
own perspective as they are), but since his view of the Prank colors 
how he thinks about James (and Sirius, but James was the relevant 
part of my post) to throw it out would be equivilant of trying to 
discuss Harry's view of Voldemort without once mentioning GH.
 
>>Betsy:
>Yeah, I was waiting for someone to equate being dangled upside down, 
genitalia on display for a mixed crowd to laugh at (if James went 
through with his threat, of course) with getting pantsed.  I think 
it's the length of time involved in the display that pushes it over 
the edge of school-boy antics into aggressive, sexual humiliaton, 
IMO.  (If Death Eaters think it's good enough for Muggle torture, 
after all...)<

>>Nora:
>Of course, we have no idea what happened next, to be pedantically 
insistent upon textual support; what is implied by the lack of 
continuation is a blank to be filled by any reader.  Parallels and 
differences.<

Betsy:
What the text tells us is that James and Sirius treat Snape to the 
same kind of sexual humiliation that the Death Eaters treated the 
Muggle woman to in GoF.  The text tells us that James threatened to 
take things a step further into a realm I would catagorize as 
*aggressive*, sexual humiliation.  And the text tells us (as Pippin 
has already pointed out) that after seeing this scene Harry thought 
his father capable of rape.  I don't think JKR is pulling her punches 
here.

>>Nora: 
>I'm unconvinced of the assertion that 'Master' is a title alluding 
to extra schooling; it could be (although we know there are no 
wizarding universities, which doesn't leave out personal tutelage, 
but there's another blank for you), it could be standard, or it could 
be Snape's fussiness. But as a joking aside, JKR does set up a Snape 
who comes into the DADA classroom with disparaging remarks about 
another teacher, and then proceeds to make at least one mistake, and 
one pointed out by the hand of the author elsewhere.  Seems a slight 
general puncturing of ego, IMO.<

Betsy:
And that proves my point.  JKR is *quite* capable of pointing 
out "fussiness" as you call it, and making fun of it.  Since she has 
never done it regarding Snape's title of Potions Master, I'm quite 
confident his title is legitimate.  *How* he got the title is, of 
course, a matter of speculation.  It could very well be that anyone 
teaching Potions is called Potions Master.  But it does nothing to 
suggest Snape's ego, inflated or otherwise.

>>Nora:
>I think Harry learned Potions by working through it in class and 
out, but I think he managed to learn things despite the personally- 
targeted hostile treatment he received.  The kind of obstacles Snape 
throws out and the kind of struggling with them involved is not the 
good kind of struggling with problems, it's the kind where you have 
to get through the mess to learn anything at all.<

Betsy:
I disagree with you here.  Snape's snarkiness in the classroom is 
generally a high demand for precision and understanding that can only 
be met by doing the homework and reading he assigns, and following 
the instructions he gives to the letter.  I imagine potions are 
pretty demanding as to how, what, and when things are added.  Snape's 
high expectations are necessary.  His demeanor encourages the 
students to do as he says.  It won't make him any friends, but it 
does give his students a high pass rate on the OWLs.  Proof is in the 
pudding, wouldn't you say?

>>Nora:
>Harry finds it so much easier when Snape isn't there--think of 
everything he could have  absorbed more quickly without overt 
hostility in the classroom.  It's much easier to learn when you don't 
have to worry about being singled out for special treatment.<

Betsy:
Harry didn't find it easier to *learn*, he found it easier to 
*perform*.  He was taking a test, not learning a lesson.  And the 
fact that Harry was comfortable within the test-taking environment 
also speaks to Snape being a good teacher.  His students can perform 
under pressure. 

>>Nora:
<snip> 
>The curiosity wasn't present from the very beginning of the 
Occlumency lessons, but lessons founded on a more solid ground (per 
my own model, perhaps) might have done something.  YMMV.<

Betsy:
Here's the first time Harry had the dream:

"He reached the black door but could not open it.... He stood gazing 
at it, desperate for entry....  Something he wanted with all his 
heart lay beyond.... A prize beyond his dreams.... If only his scar 
would stop prickling... then he would be able to think more 
clearly...." (OotP Scholastic hardback ed. pp. 496-497)

The curiosity is cleverly placed there by Voldemort, I presume.  But 
I think lack of information (Dumbledore's fault) feeds it.  Lupin 
would have been nicer, and Harry would have felt a bit more guilty 
(maybe) about keeping at the dreams.  But he would have kept at them. 
IMO, of course. 

>>Nora:
>I never said it's that he wasn't really bothered.  I said that his 
reaction to them makes sense with some of the aspects.  It's bad 
enough that Fudge is calling Snape unhinged, and Snape has also gone 
around Dumbledore to try to get his way.

Betsy:
But wouldn't going around Dumbledore negate the "craving for 
validation" part of NPD? :)

>>Nora:
>It's the way that Black's escape is regarded as an utterly personal 
affront; it's more about what Black has done in the *past* to Snape 
than any conception of present guilt, etc.<

Betsy:
That's my entire point.  It *is* personal.  Very personal.  Snape and 
Black have a relationship that goes back years, none of it good.  It 
effects Black just as strongly.  Sirius disobeyed Dumbledore and 
sabatoged the Occlumency lessons because of his hatred of Snape.  

>>Nora:
>So here's a question for you: why does Dumbledore hang Snape out to 
dry in the way that he does?<

Betsy
I assume you're talking about the end of PoA.  I didn't see 
Dumbledore hanging Snape out to dry.  I did see him gently pulling 
Snape back under control.  The fact the Snape still holds Dumbledore 
in high regard in GoF, and that Dumbledore still considers Snape a 
strong ally in his fight against Voldemort suggests that neither men 
considered Dumbledore's comments a betrayal.

>>Nora:
>...[Snape's] inability or unwillingness to rethink positions when 
faced with new evidence...<

>>Betsy:
>Erm... So we'll just ignore that whole switching sides against his 
friends and his upbringing thing, then?<

>>Nora: 
>That is important.  However, we have absolutely no evidence as to 
motivation or what was involved here, so we have to plug it as a 
blank.<
<snip>

Betsy:
But it doesn't matter what Snape's motivations were.  You were 
arguing that once Snape picked a position he stuck with it.  And we 
have canonical evidence that he *can* and *has* changed positions.  
Fairly dramatically.  The whys and wherefores are unimportant here.

>>Nora:
>...his general arrogance and self-confidence in his own opinions...<

>Betsy:
>And I see we're also ignoring the whole Occlumency thing...<
<snip>

>>Nora:
<snip> 
>Of course, one could argue that Snape is only doing his duty as a 
Professor of the school, to take care of a student and do these 
niggling little things that Dumbledore, the man who saved him from 
trial as a DE, asks him to.<

Betsy:
But even in "only doing his duty" Snape is doing something he doesn't 
wish to, because Dumbledore has told him it's important.  That 
suggests that Snape *will* do something that in his own opinion is a 
waste of time.

>>Nora: 
>In the Shrieking Shack, a lot of Snape's rhetoric is oriented 
towards "I done got you, Sirius Black, and you done me wrong".  Snape 
gets so worked up that he seems to forget that it's not about what 
happened in the past ala schooldays, it's what happened ala 
traitors/etc. that should matter in that situation--and he won't even 
listen.<

Betsy:
Why would he listen to two traitors and liars, and three children who 
could have easily been Confounded?  And why is it so odd that Snape 
is thrilled to catch Sirius?  This is a man who almost killed him.  
Of course he's thrilled.  And it's not like there was big mystery 
surrounding Sirius as far as the WW is concerned.  He was an escaped 
convict, why would Snape think there was a question to be answered? 

>>Nora: 
>You can put the things together, really.  Snape has a personal 
history.  Why on earth does he react to events from it with such 
intense fervor?  Some aspects of the personality diagnosis illuminate 
patterns in his reactions, particularly the intensity of them and 
their resistance to more logical processing.<

Betsy:
What "resistance to more logical processing"?  It's perfectly logical 
for a man to resent those who made his childhood so very painful and 
nearly killed him.  What I find illogical is the surprise at Snape's 
intense hatred of the Marauders.  From everything JKR has shown us, 
Snape is perfectly justified in his feelings.  That's part of the 
reason I question the NPD label.  Snape's reactions make sense 
*without* the label.  In order for the NPD idea to stick, show me 
Snape reacting in the same manner to those he *doesn't* share a 
personal history with.

>>Nora:
>There is a leap which has to be made to look at the child of someone 
(who you know is an orphan; it's open to debate what Snape knew/knows 
about Harry's life otherwise) and go "His daddy done me wrong; I'll 
learn that boy good".<

Betsy:
It's a leap, I for one, do not make.  I do not think Snape sees Harry 
as an opportunity to take vengence on James' wrongs.  I *do* think 
Snape worries that Harry will be filled with the same overblown 
arrogance and self-centeredness that did James in.  There's a 
profound difference.

>>Nora:  
>There's a particular override of personal issues over institutional 
(and other) duties that would lead one to the kind of madness shown 
in the Shrieking Shack...<

Betsy:
It's exactly this kind of unrealistic demand that I just cannot 
comprehend.  You expect Snape to be at his most logical and 
reasonable when confronting some of the worst demons of his past, in 
a place he very nearly died.  I think you expect to much.

>>Nora:
<snip>
>...and then flares into a screaming hissy-fit at the moment of 
disappointment...<

Betsy:
"Yes, Snape, your attempted murderer just escaped.  Again.  Do stop 
sulking."  I just can't fathom it.  I suppose you think Harry 
drasically overreacted to Cedric's death and the whole graveyard 
scene in GoF? I mean, how dare he fall apart so badly in OotP.  Maybe 
Harry has a personality disorder?  He *does* scream a lot. :)

Betsy