Narcissistic!Snape (was: Whither Snape?) [long!]

[nrenka]

No: HPFGUIDX 127379


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "horridporrid03" 
<horridporrid03 at y...> wrote:

> Betsy:
> Erm, actually Sirius *and* James sexually humiliated Snape.  And 
> from Snape's POV, James *and* Sirius tried to kill him.  James 
> got "cold feet" and backed out of the joke. (PoA Scholastic Ed. 
> p.285)  Neat enough for you?

Okay; from Snape's perspective, James is a direct participant.  From 
Snape's perspective, it seems that everything done to him is due to 
be paid back in full to the next generation, as well.  But let's not 
go further into talking about the Prank, because I don't buy your 
scenario or anyone else's at the moment.  All are equally unlikely 
from the current perspective.

> Betsy:
> Yeah, I was waiting for someone to equate being dangled upside 
> down, genitalia on display for a mixed crowd to laugh at (if James 
> went through with his threat, of course) with getting pantsed.  I 
> think it's the length of time involved in the display that pushes 
> it over the edge of school-boy antics into aggressive, sexual 
> humiliaton, IMO.  (If Death Eaters think it's good enough for 
> Muggle torture, after all...)

Of course, we have no idea what happened next, to be pedantically 
insistent upon textual support; what is implied by the lack of 
continuation is a blank to be filled by any reader.  Parallels and 
differences.

> Betsy:
> Good thing it's not that simple, huh?

I suspect it's going to end up simpler than most of us think.
 
> >>Betsy:
> >I also think JKR would mock Snape's false title, just as she did 
> with Lockhart's supposed expertise.<
>   
> >>Nora: 
> >She does mock his DADA knowledge... :)
> 
> Betsy:
> Not sure of your point here.  Snape is still the *Potions* Master, 
> right?

I'm unconvinced of the assertion that 'Master' is a title alluding to 
extra schooling; it could be (although we know there are no wizarding 
universities, which doesn't leave out personal tutelage, but there's 
another blank for you), it could be standard, or it could be Snape's 
fussiness.  But as a joking aside, JKR does set up a Snape who comes 
into the DADA classroom with disparaging remarks about another 
teacher, and then proceeds to make at least one mistake, and one 
pointed out by the hand of the author elsewhere.  Seems a slight 
general puncturing of ego, IMO.
 
> Betsy:
> I was being brief, Snape's teaching style not being the point of 
> the post.  If you want a longer discussion on my views on Snape's 
> teaching style, you can look at message 126800 where I go into a 
> bit more detail. (Out of curiosity, how do *you* think Harry 
> learned potions?)  

I think Harry learned Potions by working through it in class and out, 
but I think he managed to learn things despite the personally-
targeted hostile treatment he received.  The kind of obstacles Snape 
throws out and the kind of struggling with them involved is not the 
good kind of struggling with problems, it's the kind where you have 
to get through the mess to learn anything at all.  Harry finds it so 
much easier when Snape isn't there--think of everything he could have 
absorbed more quickly without overt hostility in the classroom.  It's 
much easier to learn when you don't have to worry about being singled 
out for special treatment.

> Betsy:
> I'm not sure how trust would overcome curiosity.  Harry *wanted* to 
> see what was in the DoM.  He may have gone through the motions with 
> a little less resentment, but he would have still welcomed the 
> dreams.    

If he had been working with a teacher who he felt like he could 
trust...well, let's go into the realm of the hypothetic.  Let's say 
he's working with Lupin and gets his mind opened up.  Instead of 
being told that he is not special and not to say Voldemort's name and 
all kinds of other things designed to reinforce our readerly 
suspicion of Snape ('Dark Lord' is even emphasized in the text: WHY 
does Snape use that?), he works with someone who asks him questions 
about his reactions and gives him feedback.  Then, if/when things 
come up, we have a Harry considerably more inclined to be open.

The curiosity wasn't present from the very beginning of the 
Occlumency lessons, but lessons founded on a more solid ground (per 
my own model, perhaps) might have done something.  YMMV.

> Betsy:
> See, this is where I get lost.  As far as Snape is concerned 
> someone who tried to kill him, someone he doesn't believe has 
> changed, has escaped, with the help of a Hogwart's golden boy.  
> Just like last time.  I can't see that his reaction was all that 
> out of line.  And it's exactly this kind of thinking, "Snape's got 
> a personality disorder, he wasn't *really* bothered by Black or 
> Potter," that I was worried SSSusan's post would generate.

I never said it's that he wasn't really bothered.  I said that his 
reaction to them makes sense with some of the aspects.  It's bad 
enough that Fudge is calling Snape unhinged, and Snape has also gone 
around Dumbledore to try to get his way.  It's the way that Black's 
escape is regarded as an utterly personal affront; it's more about 
what Black has done in the *past* to Snape than any conception of 
present guilt, etc.

So here's a question for you: why does Dumbledore hang Snape out to 
dry in the way that he does?

>> Nora:
>> Prominent amongst these are things thematically emphasized with 
>> Snape: his inability or unwillingness to rethink positions when 
>> faced with new evidence...
> 
> Betsy:
> Erm... So we'll just ignore that whole switching sides against his 
> friends and his upbringing thing, then?

That is important.  However, we have absolutely no evidence as to 
motivation or what was involved here, so we have to plug it as a 
blank.  You can't really argue from canon hypothetics, you have to 
note that it has influence, but no one knows what, of course.

>> Nora:
>>...his general arrogance and self-confidence in his own opinions...
> 
> Betsy:
> And I see we're also ignoring the whole Occlumency thing where 
> Snape took on a task he detested soley because Dumbledore requested 
> he do it.  And the many times he put his personal feelings aside to 
> make sure Harry was safe, from PS/SS to OotP.

And then he stopped the Occlumency lessons.  Why, we don't know; it 
might have been approved of by Dumbledore, it might have been on his 
own volition because he thought he should.  Of course, one could 
argue that Snape is only doing his duty as a Professor of the school, 
to take care of a student and do these niggling little things that 
Dumbledore, the man who saved him from trial as a DE, asks him to.

>> Nora:
>> ...and the tendency to think that it's all about him (see all of 
>> PoA, for instance).
> 
> Betsy:
> Not sure I saw that tendency throughout PoA (or in any of the books 
> for that matter).  I *did* see Snape constantly questioning 
> Dumbledore's trust in Lupin.  Something Snape was quite right 
> about, as it turns out.  
  
Something that Snape was *partially* correct about.  Lupin's sins, as 
thematic for his character, are sins of omission rather than sins of 
comission, as Snape would have them.  Snape seems more offended about 
Lupin's presence at the school at all, and is profoundly 
unprofessional when he takes Lupin's class.  [McG is our standard 
there, and tells us "I won't badmouth another teacher to their 
class", which is exactly what Snape proceeds to do.  Deliberate, the 
inclusion of the former.]

In the Shrieking Shack, a lot of Snape's rhetoric is oriented 
towards "I done got you, Sirius Black, and you done me wrong".  Snape 
gets so worked up that he seems to forget that it's not about what 
happened in the past ala schooldays, it's what happened ala 
traitors/etc. that should matter in that situation--and he won't even 
listen.

> Betsy:
> Good thing I didn't just go, "Oh, personal history," huh?  Kinda 
> like just going, "Oh, personality disorder."  A tad over-
> simplistic, yes?

You can put the things together, really.  Snape has a personal 
history.  Why on earth does he react to events from it with such 
intense fervor?  Some aspects of the personality diagnosis illuminate 
patterns in his reactions, particularly the intensity of them and 
their resistance to more logical processing.  There is a leap which 
has to be made to look at the child of someone (who you know is an 
orphan; it's open to debate what Snape knew/knows about Harry's life 
otherwise) and go "His daddy done me wrong; I'll learn that boy 
good".  There's a particular override of personal issues over 
institutional (and other) duties that would lead one to the kind of 
madness shown in the Shrieking Shack, which cools into what might be 
either sincere or insincere deliberation, and then flares into a 
screaming hissy-fit at the moment of disappointment--when he had been 
told as much to go away and let his boss deal with it and trust in 
his boss.

It's not like he's non-functional, or is completely described by said 
diagnosis, or doesn't have any number of virtues.  At the way the 
text stands right now, the virtues have been mentioned but not shown, 
and thus inhabit a lesser realm of textual reality.  [Ron vs. 
Hermione; direct knowledge vs. being content in an interlocutor.]  If 
we want to make sense of the character being trusted, we need to be 
able to make sense of the failings as well.  The pure personal 
history diagnosis says "Snape behaves the way that he does because he 
is Snape with this history", which doesn't seem very illuminating to 
me.  The other one which says "Snape behaves the way that he does 
because he reacts to his personal history with these kinds of 
reactions and strategies" seems to tell me a little bit more.

I suspect the brilliance of the character writing is in the setup, 
where he could current go any number of ways.  Will it be less fun 
when some things are set, if it is revealed (a guess) that he's not 
just been playing Good DE Teacher but does it simply because he can?

-Nora gets a good seat to watch the fandom complain about how JKR 
ruined Snape, which at least one person here or there or anywhere 
will make