Lucious, Severus, and Narcissistic PD (long response)

[cubfanbudwoman]

No: HPFGUIDX 127466


Ooooh, the fun continues!  :-)

Julie:
> I see Snape as wounded, and his behaviors, etc., as defenses rather 
> than as his "character."  <snip>   This is why  I see him as very 
> different form Lucious Malfoy.  <snip>  There is something 
> redeeming about Severus, vague and indefinable but  redeeming.  
> 
> Yes, Severus BEHAVES in ways that may seem narcissistic.  Is that 
> content (at the behavioral level) or is that process (at the 
> character level)?  My view is that this is at the content 
> level...what he does, rather than at the process level...who he is.
> 
> Psychotherapy with Snape would be a significantly different process 
> than with Lucious.


SSSusan:
It's interesting to note that much of what Julie is saying here is in 
alignment with Jim Ferer's position in 127218 re: a wounded Snape.

And Julie's remarks about thereapy are also quite interesting, given 
what Mara (the other clinical psychologist who's weighed in) said in 
127233:  

>>If I had to choose which of the two adults I'd rather see in my
office -- I'd actually choose Snape, I think. Lockhart would be
very, very hard to treat.<<

So, while Mara was comparing Snape & Lockhart and Julie was comparing 
Snape & Lucius Malfoy, they both agree that Snape would be the 
preferred client.  And in spite of my argument for Narcissistic!
Snape, I can most decidedly see both their points on this. 


Julie:
> I would not diagnose him as Narcissistic PD because I do not think 
> this is who he is as a person at the core of his being.  

SSSusan:
I wrote to Julie offlist with my attempt at this yesterday, so I 
think it's only fair I play along. 

> Narcissistic Personality Disorder is "a pervasive pattern of 
> grandiosity...need for admiration...and a lack of empathy."
> 
> 1. Grandiose sense of self-importance --> I do not see him as 
> exaggerating his achievements versus his abilities.  

SSSusan:  I agree that this is an area in which we don't have canon 
to be certain.

 
> 2. Preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, etc --> 
> I see him as longing to have power, ideal love, etc., but not 
> occupied with the fantasies of already having it (which is what is 
> meant by this criteria).

SSSusan:  I agree that we have no way of knowing about what things 
Severus Snape fantasizes.  

 
> 3. Believes he is "special"...--> This may be what underlies his 
> suport for Slytherin and contempt of the other houses.  However, 
> the other heads of houses may favor their houses as well, just not 
> as obviously as Severus.  

SSSusan:
I'm sticking back in the rest of the description of this 
characteristic:  "Believes he is special and unique and can only be 
understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status 
people (or institutions)"

I do so because I think the rest of it is easier to support.  His 
comments about "dunderheads" and about what he can show the few who 
understand the subtle science and exact art... could speak to this.  
With what we've seen, we can only compare Snape to McGonagall in 
terms of favoritism, and Snape's got it in spades over MM (whose 
broom to Harry was her one big moment of favoritism).

 
> 4. Requires excessive admiration --> Not sure about this.  I don't 
> see him acting "chummy" with Draco, just not as contemptable toward 
> him as Harry.  Not sure what impact excessive admiration would have 
> on Severus.  He does seem to be loyal to DD, but I would think this 
> is because he feels loyalty toward DD and not because DD 
> excessively admires him. 

SSSusan:  I guess I see requiring admiration as different from 
wanting chumminess from students.  I have seen it more along the 
lines of his being annoyed by "dunderheads" who don't show adequate 
appreciation of him or of what he is able to teach them.  I see it 
also as his being loyal to DD in part because DD has been 
*appreciative* of Snape, as someone who has acknowledged his 
importance, which I believe he craved.

 
> 5. Has a sense of entitlement --> He expects to be treated with 
> respect by the students because he is a professor.  I don't see 
> this as entitlement.  I would think Minerva would not act to kindly 
> if students treated her with disrespect.  The difference is she is 
> seen as a warmer and more likeable person, even though just as 
> strict as Severus.  

SSSusan:
I absolutely do see this.  Snape DEMANDS to be referred to by his 
title.  McGonagall might correct a student who didn't use the title, 
but would she do it with as much venom?  Would she see it as a 
personal affront or as merely an oversight?  I think Snape is very 
hung up on respect.  "I, Severus Snape, master of this school, 
demand..." with the map – now, maybe that was just how he thought he 
could make the map show its secrets; but maybe it was his expectation 
that he deserved its doing so (how *dare* it not show it to HIM!).  
Same thing with the "You do remember how he once tried to kill ME" 
line to DD.  Not to mention DD's "Some wounds run too deep..." 
explanation to Harry about Occlumency.  Clearly DD thought a typical 
grown man would've been over the bad history w/ James; clearly Snape 
is not *and* still feels he's *due* some measure of vengeance or 
justice or angry outlet over this.

 
> 6. In interpersonally exploitative --> I have not read anything in 
> canon that would support this.

SSSusan:  Me either.  It would be total speculation.  OTOH, I think 
it *might* be possible to argue that anyone willing to be a Death 
Eater might have this attribute?

 
> 7. Lack empathy --> In the HP series, we see Severus from Harry's 
> point of view and Harry does not like him.  We do not know that he 
> lacks empathy.

SSSusan:  I *so* see this as one of Snape's biggies!  The "I see no 
difference" to Hermione's growing teeth.  The entire scene where 
Snape states to Lupin, in front of the class, that Lupin will want to 
watch out, as Neville Longbottom is in the class – a total 
humiliation of Neville in a situation where it wasn't even his class 
and Neville hadn't provoked him.  Also, if he were an empathetic 
person, might he not understand a little about the kind of life Harry 
has had to live, the suffering he has endured?  We see absolutely 
*no* sign that Snape has been moved one whit by Harry's losses.  I 
think lack of empathy is one of the most easily demonstrated aspects 
of Snape's character. 

 
> 8. Often envious of others --> Did seem envious of the Marauders in 
> the pensive.

SSSusan:  Yes.  And, even though it's "biased" testimony, we do have 
that bit about Snape's having been jealous of James' Quidditch 
skills.  One might wonder, too, about whether he was envious of Lupin 
as Prefect, James as Head Boy, Sirius & James' intelligence, 
James' "strutting about" like a BMOC.  Extrapolation, some of that, 
but fairly believable, I'd argue.
 

> 9. Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes --> I'd agree 
> with this.

SSSusan:  Absolutely.  I don't think even Snape apologists would 
disagree.


> So, in this analysis, Severus possibly meets 2 criteria, less than 
> the 5 required for the diagnosis.  Granted, he is not nice, not 
> warm and fuzzy, and not tops on my list to invite to a dinner 
> party.  However, I would not diagnose him with NPD.  If he were a 
> client of mine,I probably would keep it in the back of my mind and 
> see how the therapy plays out, but would not diagnose him based on 
> the information at hand.

SSSusan:  And I'm not a professional, and my counseling degree is 
from 15 years ago, so I should be taken with one giant grain of 
salt!  But I come up to somewhere in the range of 4 - 6 of the 
requirements.  

I think where I'm coming down is that I do understand those who would 
stop short of saying Snape has NPD and would probably align myself 
more with Kemper's "Snape has narcissistic traits," because I do 
absolutely think he has several (though in no way all) of the traits.


Julie:
> I would not be surprised if  his empathy is what made him turn from 
> being a DE and this is what  DD knows/sees in Severus.  Again, this 
> is purely speculation, but based on how I have read the books, this 
> has been my interpretation


SSSusan:
And it's interesting that yesterday I posted on what would be key for 
me in all of this:  the reason Snape left Voldy & the Des.  If it was 
empathy, then I'm with you, Julie.  If it was an internal epiphany 
brought on by a bout of introspection, I'm definitely off the NPD!
Snape bandwagon.  If, however, it was because Voldy did something 
which Snape viewed as such an egregious personal affront that he 
decided to seek vengeance no matter the cost, then I'm sticking to my 
Narcissistic!Snape.  

Siriusly Snapey Susan, who hopes at least a few others are finding 
this as fun as she is.