Lucious, Severus, and Narcissistic PD (long response)

[fanofminerva]

No: HPFGUIDX 127472


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" 
<susiequsie23 at s...> wrote:
> 
> Ooooh, the fun continues!  :-)
> 
><major snippage>

I also am enjoying this discussion.  I read the posts you mentioned 
(Jim and Mara).  I really enjoy the different perspective we have on 
the character that, IMO, is the most complex character in the HP 
series thus far.

Our differing perspectives are like viewing a Kleenex box sitting on 
the floor.  Some see one side, others two or three.  The cool thing 
is no one person can see all 6 sides at the same time.  Putting the 
perspectives together gives a better, and often more accurate, 
overall view.

 SSSusan:
> I wrote to Julie offlist with my attempt at this yesterday, so I 
> think it's only fair I play along. 
> 
> > <snip>  
> > 3. Believes he is "special"...--> This may be what underlies his 
> > suport for Slytherin and contempt of the other houses.  However, 
> > the other heads of houses may favor their houses as well, just 
not 
> > as obviously as Severus.  
> 
> SSSusan:
> I'm sticking back in the rest of the description of this 
> characteristic:  "Believes he is special and unique and can only 
be 
> understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-
status 
> people (or institutions)"
> 
> I do so because I think the rest of it is easier to support.  His 
> comments about "dunderheads" and about what he can show the few 
who 
> understand the subtle science and exact art... could speak to 
this.  
> With what we've seen, we can only compare Snape to McGonagall in 
> terms of favoritism, and Snape's got it in spades over MM (whose 
> broom to Harry was her one big moment of favoritism).

I definitely can see you pov.

> 
>  
> > 4. Requires excessive admiration --> Not sure about this.  I 
don't 
> > see him acting "chummy" with Draco, just not as contemptable 
toward 
> > him as Harry.  Not sure what impact excessive admiration would 
have 
> > on Severus.  He does seem to be loyal to DD, but I would think 
this 
> > is because he feels loyalty toward DD and not because DD 
> > excessively admires him. 
> 
> SSSusan:  I guess I see requiring admiration as different from 
> wanting chumminess from students.  I have seen it more along the 
> lines of his being annoyed by "dunderheads" who don't show 
adequate 
> appreciation of him or of what he is able to teach them.  I see it 
> also as his being loyal to DD in part because DD has been 
> *appreciative* of Snape, as someone who has acknowledged his 
> importance, which I believe he craved.

What I meant by "chummy" is responding favorably to someone who 
showed him admiration.  I really like your and Mara's views of his 
relationship with DD.

> 
>  
> > 5. Has a sense of entitlement --> He expects to be treated with 
> > respect by the students because he is a professor.  I don't see 
> > this as entitlement.  I would think Minerva would not act to 
kindly 
> > if students treated her with disrespect.  The difference is she 
is 
> > seen as a warmer and more likeable person, even though just as 
> > strict as Severus.  
> 
> SSSusan:
> I absolutely do see this.  Snape DEMANDS to be referred to by his 
> title.  McGonagall might correct a student who didn't use the 
title, 
> but would she do it with as much venom?  Would she see it as a 
> personal affront or as merely an oversight?  I think Snape is very 
> hung up on respect.  

Yes, I agree.  I still wonder if it is a sense of entitlement.

"I, Severus Snape, master of this school, 
> demand..." with the map – now, maybe that was just how he thought 
he 
> could make the map show its secrets; but maybe it was his 
expectation 
> that he deserved its doing so (how *dare* it not show it to HIM!). 

I can see that.
 
> Same thing with the "You do remember how he once tried to kill ME" 
> line to DD.  Not to mention DD's "Some wounds run too deep..." 
> explanation to Harry about Occlumency.  Clearly DD thought a 
typical 
> grown man would've been over the bad history w/ James; clearly 
Snape 
> is not *and* still feels he's *due* some measure of vengeance or 
> justice or angry outlet over this.

Could be interpreted as a "narcissistic wound."  I see it more as a 
vulnerability.  (Hard for me to put this into words.)

> 
>  
> > 6. In interpersonally exploitative --> I have not read anything 
in 
> > canon that would support this.
> 
> SSSusan:  Me either.  It would be total speculation.  OTOH, I 
think 
> it *might* be possible to argue that anyone willing to be a Death 
> Eater might have this attribute?
> 
>  
> > 7. Lack empathy --> In the HP series, we see Severus from 
Harry's 
> > point of view and Harry does not like him.  We do not know that 
he 
> > lacks empathy.
> 
> SSSusan:  I *so* see this as one of Snape's biggies!  The "I see 
no 
> difference" to Hermione's growing teeth.  The entire scene where 
> Snape states to Lupin, in front of the class, that Lupin will want 
to 
> watch out, as Neville Longbottom is in the class – a total 
> humiliation of Neville in a situation where it wasn't even his 
class 
> and Neville hadn't provoked him.  Also, if he were an empathetic 
> person, might he not understand a little about the kind of life 
Harry 
> has had to live, the suffering he has endured?  We see absolutely 
> *no* sign that Snape has been moved one whit by Harry's losses.  I 
> think lack of empathy is one of the most easily demonstrated 
aspects 
> of Snape's character. 

Yes, I can see this.  However, I have read speculations (back when I 
was reading the list about a year ago) that Snape acted this way 
to "toughen up" those he knew to be in great danger (a Muggle and 
the son of the Longbottoms).  Again, with no insight into his 
motivation, this is still left for interpretation.

> 
>  
> > 8. Often envious of others --> Did seem envious of the Marauders 
in 
> > the pensive.
> 
> SSSusan:  Yes.  And, even though it's "biased" testimony, we do 
have 
> that bit about Snape's having been jealous of James' Quidditch 
> skills.  One might wonder, too, about whether he was envious of 
Lupin 
> as Prefect, James as Head Boy, Sirius & James' intelligence, 
> James' "strutting about" like a BMOC.  Extrapolation, some of 
that, 
> but fairly believable, I'd argue.
>  
> 
> > 9. Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes --> I'd agree 
> > with this.
> 
> SSSusan:  Absolutely.  I don't think even Snape apologists would 
> disagree.
> 
> 
> > <Snip> 
> Julie:
> > I would not be surprised if  his empathy is what made him turn 
from 
> > being a DE and this is what  DD knows/sees in Severus.  Again, 
this 
> > is purely speculation, but based on how I have read the books, 
this 
> > has been my interpretation
> 
> 
> SSSusan:
> And it's interesting that yesterday I posted on what would be key 
for 
> me in all of this:  the reason Snape left Voldy & the Des.  If it 
was 
> empathy, then I'm with you, Julie.  If it was an internal epiphany 
> brought on by a bout of introspection, I'm definitely off the NPD!
> Snape bandwagon.  If, however, it was because Voldy did something 
> which Snape viewed as such an egregious personal affront that he 
> decided to seek vengeance no matter the cost, then I'm sticking to 
my 
> Narcissistic!Snape.  
> 
> Siriusly Snapey Susan, who hopes at least a few others are finding 
> this as fun as she is.

Yes, I think the main piece that is missing is the reason he left 
LV.  I do think this would be a determining factor in "making the 
diagnosis" so to speak because it would give us significantly more 
insight into his motivations.

I did not comment on Lockhart before, but I would agree with Mara.  
I guess of all the characters, Lucious stood out to me as the most 
like candidate for NPD, or Antisocial PD.  Lockhart to me was such 
an obvious phony, I ready him strictly for entertainment.  The 
sinister nature of Lucious and the interpersonal exploitation is 
what jumped out and grabbed me.  Lockhart is just more palatable to 
me.

Bottom line, of the three, I would much prefer Severus as a client 
because of his complexity.

Julie 
Thank you, Susan, for your offlist encouragement to post onlist.