Back to narcissistic!Snape (was: Lucious, Severus, and Narcissistic PD)

[cubfanbudwoman]

No: HPFGUIDX 127517


SSSusan:  Oh, I'm afraid I'm fired up & ready to go again!  ;-)

Naama:
> Yes, Snape is very hung up on respect - but is not hung up at all 
> on admiration, IMO. ...I do remember Snape overhearing Harry and 
> Ron bad-mouthing him, and he doesn't care - he seems amused, if 
> anything. I also agree that while pleased with Draco's flattery, 
> he doesn't seek it. 

SSSusan:
Possibly, though I would maintain that we really don't know whether 
he seeks Draco's flattery or not.  When Draco went on about how he 
(Snape) should be Headmaster, maybe one reason he did so was because 
he's been rewarded for past comments along those lines?

You make a fair point about Snape's reaction to the students.  I 
have maintained all along that Snape may crave admiration for 
*certain* things [e.g., his skills and talents] and from *certain* 
people more than others, in large part from Dumbledore and/or his 
adult peers.  More on that later.

Re: his interactions with students, there is this from 
http://www.mental-health-matters.com/articles/sv001.php?artID=86 :

"Being in a position of authority secures the sources of 
Narcissistic Supply [excessive admiration, adulation, attention and 
affirmation - or, failing that, wishes to be feared and to be 
notorious]. Fed by the awe, fear, subordination, admiration, 
adoration and obedience of his underlings – the narcissist thrives 
in such circumstances. 

As far as the narcissist is concerned, there is no moral dimension 
to the issue of abusing others – only a pragmatic one: will he be 
punished for doing so?"

SSSusan:  To me, this sounds quite like the typical Snape classroom 
behavior.  I think it's noteworthy that being feared or being seen 
as notorious by underlings is considered an acceptable alternative 
to receiving adulation or admiration.


Naama:
> "admiration" from dictionary.com: "a feeling of delighted approval 
> and liking"... As adults, we don't need admiration (although we 
> enjoy it when we get it) - but we all demand, to some degree, 
> respect. As a need, admiration belongs to childhood, respect to 
> adulthood.

SSSusan:
I'm not saying that dictionary definition of admiration is wrong, 
and I'm not arguing whether it belongs to adulthood or childhood; 
I'm simply going with what the DSM-IV presents us as traits upon 
which to base an NPD diagnosis.  I totally agree with you that Snape 
demands respect from his students.  OTOH, I also think he does want 
admiration as well -- definitely from DD, likely from his peers, and 
possibly a certain degree from his students (think of the "you 
should be thanking me on bended knee" comment to Harry).

On this issue of the adults in his environment, something which was 
brought up earlier by Mara is that two different people whom one 
might class as narcissistic can have different manifestations of 
it.  Lockhart, for instance, seems to crave admiration from EVERY 
witch or wizard he's ever met.  Beyond what I've said above about 
his interactions with students and how even those could be seen as 
satisfying the need for Narcissistic Supply, it may well be that 
Snape craves his affirmation and admiration primarily from his 
colleagues and especially DD.

For one thing, per http://samvak.tripod.com/npd.html :
"Narcissists are either 'cerebral' (derive their narcissistic supply 
from their intelligence or academic achievements) - or 'somatic' 
(derive their narcissistic supply from their physique, exercise, 
physical or sexual prowess and romantic or physical 'conquests')." 

I, um, see Snape in the cerebral category, obviously. ;-)

A bit of potential support for this idea that Snape expects 
different "support" or supply from different people comes from 
http://www.mental-health-matters.com/articles/sv001.php?artID=85 :

"The narcissist is no better or worse (morally speaking) than 
others. But he lacks the ability to empathise precisely because he 
is obsessed with the maintenance of his delicate inner balance 
through the (ever-growing) consumption of Narcissistic Supply.

The narcissist rates people around him. First, he conducts a binary 
test: can this or that person provide him with Narcissistic Supply?  
As far as the narcissist is concerned, those who fail this simple 
test do not exist. They are two-dimensional cartoon figures. Their 
feelings, needs and fears are of no interest or importance."  
[Harry??]

"Those persons who filtered through, are then subjected to a 
meticulous examination and probing of the volume and quality of the 
Narcissistic Supply that is likely to emanate from them. The 
narcissist  nurtures and cultivates these people. He caters to their 
needs, desires, and wishes. He considers their emotions. He 
encourages those aspects of their personality that are likely to 
enhance their ability to provide him with his much needed supply. In 
this very restricted sense, he regards and treats them as `human'. 
This is his way of `maintaining and servicing' his Supply Sources."  

SSSusan:
McGonagall, Dumbledore and other staff members??  The description is 
a little stronger than what we see with Snape, perhaps, but we also 
don't see what happens in the staff room, yet what we *do* see of 
the interactions between Snape & McG and many between Snape & DD 
could support it.

Pippin suggested the possibility that Snape is more sadistic than 
narcissistic.  Here is some information which might address that.
>From http://www.mental-health-matters.com/articles/sv001.php?
artID=166 :

"A narcissist would tend to display the sadistic aspect of his 
personality in one of two cases:
1. That the very acts of sadism would generate Narcissistic Supply 
to be consumed by the narcissist (`I inflict pain, therefore I am 
superior') or
2. That the victims of his sadism are still his only or major 
sources of Narcissistic Supply but are perceived by him to be 
intentionally frustrating and withholding it. Sadistic acts are his 
way of punishing them for not being docile, obedient, admiring and 
adoring as he expects them to be in view of his uniqueness, cosmic 
significance and special entitlement.
...The narcissist tortures and abuses as a means to punish and to 
reassert superiority and grandiosity. The sadist does so for pure 
(usually, sexual) enjoyment."

SSSusan:  This would imply that, unless Snape is garnering sexual 
enjoyment from being sadistic [anybody wanna go there??], he's more 
in alignment with the narcissist.  

Note the potential reason for behaving sadistically in wanting to 
punish students for "intentionally frustrating or withholding" 
Narcissistic Supply.  Several posters have suggested that Snape 
treats Harry & Neville the way he does precisely because he *is* 
frustrated by their refusal to take him seriously and to value what 
he does.  If Snape sees Harry & Neville as deliberately not doing 
what they're asked, deliberately not paying attention, intentionally 
disregarding him, then one might suspect a narcissistic Snape to 
behave sadistically in return.


> > SSSusan earlier:  I think  it *might* be possible to argue that 
> > anyone willing to be a Death Eater might have this attribute 
> > [interpersonal exploitation]?

Naama:
> I don't agree with your last speculation. The narcissist 
> exploitativeness arises from a deep lack of an authentic response 
> to other human beings as specific persons. Think of Lockhart and 
> Voldemort. <snip>
> Snape, on the other hand, responds to people authentically, 
> emotionally (passionately, rather) and specifically - of course, 
> he's all twisted and bitter and full of rage - but he doesn't have 
> that unique disconnect that (I believe) characterises the 
> narcissist.

SSSusan:
I'm not sure how I feel about the suggestion that Snape responds to 
people *authentically.*  But as for the issue of exploitation, 
narcissists use other people to get what they want without caring 
about the cost to the other people.  I think this is congruent with 
what it would likely take to be a Death Eater.

>From  http://www.mental-health-matters.com/articles/sv001.php?
artID=85 :
  
"The narcissist has no time or energy for anything, except the next 
narcissistic fix, NO MATTER WHAT THE PRICE AND WHO IS TRAMPLED UPON."

SSSusan:
Now, I don't believe that Snape is or was ever *this* bad – that ALL 
he cares about is a narcissistic fix – but if this describes what is 
meant by the interpersonal exploitation  characteristic of NPD, it 
seems compatible with what Des would be expected to be like.

Naama:
> If you look at the Snape-goes-ballistic incidents, they are much 
> better understood as hurt pride/dignity (i.e., being disrespected) 
> than hurt ego (not receiving admiration). 

SSSusan:
Hurt pride/dignity **or** indignation, I would say.  Indignation, 
particularly over what is seen as a personal affront, would fit, imo.

Naama:
> I think this is a major point against the narcissistic Snape 
> theory. The narcissistic self got "stuck", so to speak, in the 
> admiration stage. Snape is healthier than that - his need for 
> respect is exaggerated and obviously a result of insecurities, but 
> still much closer to normal adult needs than a narcissist. 


SSSusan:
Again, this is quite possible, Naama.  I may have read too much into 
this whole thing.  Then again, I might not have. ;-)  As I said 
before, I think once we know why Snape left Voldy, we'll have a 
better chance of knowing whether Snape is a fairly healthy, close-to-
normal adult who just doesn't like to have his pride/dignity 
assaulted, or whether he more closely fits someone who's 
narcissistic.  I'm afraid I'm still leaning towards the latter.

Siriusly Snapey Susan