Back to narcissistic!Snape (was: Lucious, Severus, and Narcissistic PD)

[naamagatus]

No: HPFGUIDX 127529


--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "cubfanbudwoman" 
<susiequsie23 at s...> wrote:
> 

> SSSusan:
> Possibly, though I would maintain that we really don't know whether 
> he seeks Draco's flattery or not.  When Draco went on about how he 
> (Snape) should be Headmaster, maybe one reason he did so was 
because 
> he's been rewarded for past comments along those lines?

Can I just request something here? Can we base this discussion on 
actual facts and not on speculation? I may possibly have a brain 
condition - my neurons are wrongly aligned or something, but I find 
myself incapable of reconciling fact and speculation - like apples 
and oranges they don't add up. 
Regarding the current point - we haven't seen Snape reward Draco for 
flattering remarks, so I'm sticking as close as I can to the realm of 
facts and assume that he doesn't generaly do it. 

> 
> 
> Re: his interactions with students, there is this from 
> http://www.mental-health-matters.com/articles/sv001.php?artID=86 :
> 
> "Being in a position of authority secures the sources of 
> Narcissistic Supply [excessive admiration, adulation, attention and 
> affirmation - or, failing that, wishes to be feared and to be 
> notorious]. Fed by the awe, fear, subordination, admiration, 
> adoration and obedience of his underlings – the narcissist thrives 
> in such circumstances. 
> 
> As far as the narcissist is concerned, there is no moral dimension 
> to the issue of abusing others – only a pragmatic one: will he be 
> punished for doing so?"
> 
> SSSusan:  To me, this sounds quite like the typical Snape classroom 
> behavior.  I think it's noteworthy that being feared or being seen 
> as notorious by underlings is considered an acceptable alternative 
> to receiving adulation or admiration.

I agree of course that Snape creates an atmosphere of fear. What I 
don't sense from the books is that he *feeds* on this fear. To 
illustrate what I mean by feed, think of Umbridge - she is someone 
who feeds on the fear and pain and humiliation she causes others. 
While Snape is sadistic and takes some sort of pleasure from 
inflicting (certain kinds of) pain, I don't get the sense that he 
*needs* others to regard him with fear in order to maintain his sense 
of self. 

> 
>snip>
>  I totally agree with you that Snape 
> demands respect from his students.  OTOH, I also think he does want 
> admiration as well -- definitely from DD, likely from his peers, 
and 
> possibly a certain degree from his students (think of the "you 
> should be thanking me on bended knee" comment to Harry).

I don't see the last comment as having anything to do with 
admiration. He thinks Harry should be grateful, i.e., say "thank 
you", not "oh, you are so wonderful." 
About DD: we know very little of Snape's relationship with DD, very 
little of how he feels about him or what he wants from him, 
emotionally. I certainly can't think of canon supporting the "Snape 
wants DD to admire him" supposition. What we do know is that Snape is 
loyal to DD and that DD trusts him. We have very little further 
insight, I believe, to the deeper aspects of their relationship.

> 
> On this issue of the adults in his environment, something which was 
> brought up earlier by Mara is that two different people whom one 
> might class as narcissistic can have different manifestations of 
> it.  Lockhart, for instance, seems to crave admiration from EVERY 
> witch or wizard he's ever met.  Beyond what I've said above about 
> his interactions with students and how even those could be seen as 
> satisfying the need for Narcissistic Supply, it may well be that 
> Snape craves his affirmation and admiration primarily from his 
> colleagues and especially DD.

<repeat alert> But there is no evidence as to that. We see so very 
little interaction between Snape and his colleagues. AFAIR, nothing 
that we have actually seen even hints that Snape craves 
admiration/approval from his colleagues. 

> snip>

> The narcissist rates people around him. First, he conducts a binary 
> test: can this or that person provide him with Narcissistic 
Supply?  
> As far as the narcissist is concerned, those who fail this simple 
> test do not exist. They are two-dimensional cartoon figures. Their 
> feelings, needs and fears are of no interest or importance."  
> [Harry??]
> 
> "Those persons who filtered through, are then subjected to a 
> meticulous examination and probing of the volume and quality of the 
> Narcissistic Supply that is likely to emanate from them. The 
> narcissist  nurtures and cultivates these people. He caters to 
their 
> needs, desires, and wishes. He considers their emotions. He 
> encourages those aspects of their personality that are likely to 
> enhance their ability to provide him with his much needed supply. 
In 
> this very restricted sense, he regards and treats them as `human'. 
> This is his way of `maintaining and servicing' his Supply 
Sources."  
> 
> SSSusan:
> McGonagall, Dumbledore and other staff members??  The description 
is 
> a little stronger than what we see with Snape, perhaps, but we also 
> don't see what happens in the staff room, yet what we *do* see of 
> the interactions between Snape & McG and many between Snape & DD 
> could support it.

As I see it, the quote you brought actually supports my position. 
Snape doesn't "cater" to anybody's "needs, desires and wishes." I 
feel very strongly that he doesn't regard people with that "binary 
division" - those who can "feed" his narsissistic need and those that 
can't. He is generally nasty to people - that's his normal mode. His 
nastiness varies in intensity, true, but at his least nasty he is 
still very very far from "catering" to anybody's "needs, desires and 
wishes." His basic courtesy, hints of friendship with McGonagall are 
so very far from that, as is his gruff loyalty to DD. 
Where do we see him "nurturing and cultivating" anybody? It's 
incongrous to even try and imagine him doing any such thing. Compare 
him to the way Lockhart does indeed "nurture and cultivate" Hermione -
 who is clearly a prime candidate for "narcissistic supply." Snape is 
more lenient with Draco the Slytherins in general, but surely that 
doesn't come close the kind of attitude described in this quote.

> 
> Pippin suggested the possibility that Snape is more sadistic than 
> narcissistic.  Here is some information which might address that.
> From http://www.mental-health-matters.com/articles/sv001.php?
> artID=166 :
> 
> "A narcissist would tend to display the sadistic aspect of his 
> personality in one of two cases:
> 1. That the very acts of sadism would generate Narcissistic Supply 
> to be consumed by the narcissist (`I inflict pain, therefore I am 
> superior') or

That's one of the few points that resonate with me in regard of Snape.

> 
> Note the potential reason for behaving sadistically in wanting to 
> punish students for "intentionally frustrating or withholding" 
> Narcissistic Supply.  Several posters have suggested that Snape 
> treats Harry & Neville the way he does precisely because he *is* 
> frustrated by their refusal to take him seriously and to value what 
> he does. 

Then why is he also cruel to Hermione? She takes her studies and her 
professors very seriously - why not "nurture" her?

>snip>
> 
> Naama:
> > I don't agree with your last speculation. The narcissist 
> > exploitativeness arises from a deep lack of an authentic response 
> > to other human beings as specific persons. Think of Lockhart and 
> > Voldemort. <snip>
> > Snape, on the other hand, responds to people authentically, 
> > emotionally (passionately, rather) and specifically - of course, 
> > he's all twisted and bitter and full of rage - but he doesn't 
have 
> > that unique disconnect that (I believe) characterises the 
> > narcissist.
> 
> SSSusan:
> I'm not sure how I feel about the suggestion that Snape responds to 
> people *authentically.*  But as for the issue of exploitation, 
> narcissists use other people to get what they want without caring 
> about the cost to the other people.  I think this is congruent with 
> what it would likely take to be a Death Eater.

People can be (and generally are) pretty selfish. That doesn't mean 
they are (necessarily) narcissists. The narcissist exploitativeness 
arises from deep within, from an unacknowledged lack in his/her sense 
of self, which is projected as a deficiency in their sense of the 
autonomous self of others. That's my understanding of what 
constitutes a narcissist. So, while of course a DE may also be a 
narcissist, it's by no means necessary. We have to look at Snape and 
decide whether he has that specific emotional blindness - and I don't 
think that he does. 

> 
> From  http://www.mental-health-matters.com/articles/sv001.php?
> artID=85 :
>   
> "The narcissist has no time or energy for anything, except the next 
> narcissistic fix, NO MATTER WHAT THE PRICE AND WHO IS TRAMPLED 
UPON."
> 
> SSSusan:
> Now, I don't believe that Snape is or was ever *this* bad – that 
ALL 
> he cares about is a narcissistic fix – but if this describes what 
is 
> meant by the interpersonal exploitation  characteristic of NPD, it 
> seems compatible with what Des would be expected to be like.

But why do you think that being a DE entailes receiving narcissistic 
fixes? From the torturing of Muggles? From killing people? I don't 
think this comes under "interpersonal exploitation", really. It goes 
beyond that, don't you think? People who get a kick from killing and 
maiming may have PD (and may not), but I think the connection to NPD 
is slim. 

> 
> Naama:
> > I think this is a major point against the narcissistic Snape 
> > theory. The narcissistic self got "stuck", so to speak, in the 
> > admiration stage. Snape is healthier than that - his need for 
> > respect is exaggerated and obviously a result of insecurities, 
but 
> > still much closer to normal adult needs than a narcissist. 
> 
> 
> SSSusan:
> Again, this is quite possible, Naama.  I may have read too much 
into 
> this whole thing.  Then again, I might not have. ;-)  As I said 
> before, I think once we know why Snape left Voldy, we'll have a 
> better chance of knowing whether Snape is a fairly healthy, close-
to-
> normal adult who just doesn't like to have his pride/dignity 
> assaulted, or whether he more closely fits someone who's 
> narcissistic.  I'm afraid I'm still leaning towards the latter.
> 

Just to be clear - I don't think that Snape is "fairly healthy", 
either. He is quite a bit f-d up. There's a lot of middle ground 
between a PD (which is a severe condition) and fairly healthy. His 
levels of rage, insecurity and cruelty are far (IMO) from healthy or 
normal. It's just that he is not as damaged as a person with NPD is.  


Naama


> 
> The only incident with similar circumstances which comes to my mind 
> and I am not sure whether you were talking about this one is when 
> Ron and Harry arrive to school in CoS and rush to Sorting.
> 
> "Hang on... Harry muttered to Ron. "There;s an emty chair at the 
> staff table... Where's Snape?"
> ...
> "Maybe he's ill" said Ron hopefully.
> "Maybe he's left," said Harry, "because he missed out on the 
Defense 
> Against Dark Arts job again!"
> "Or he migh have been sacked!" said Ron enthusiastically. "I mean 
> everyone hates him--"
> "Or maybe ," said a very cold voice right behind them, "he's 
waiting 
> to hear why you two didn't arrive on the school train." - CoS, 
p.78, 
> paperback.
> 
> If this is the one you are referring to, I see no sign of amusement 
> in Snape's voice, although remark by itself is entertaining to me, 
> sure.
> 
> But judging  by the way Snape deals with it later on, I would say 
he 
> does care about what he overheard ( IMO only), because he does not 
> really bother like Dumbledore to figure out whay it happened. I 
> mean, sure it WAS dangerous, but I wonder how remarks like this one 
> is going to help to investigate what happened.
> 
> "So", he said softly, "the train isn't good enough for the famous 
> Harry Potter and his faithful sidekick Weasley. Wanted toa rrive 
> with a bang, did we, boys?" - CoS, p.78.
> 
> I think ( and this IS a speculation of course) that Snape IS 
annoyed 
> with boys badmouthing him earlier and now does the same "mature" 
> thing to them. JMO, of course.

Well, you are entitled to your opinion, but ... where's the 
difference in his reaction here and any of his regular snide remarks 
to Harry (which don't have the context of having just overheared 
Harry talking about him)?  He is mean, nasty - but nothing out of the 
usual. However, there are situations where his reactions are 
different - you sense an explosion within him. Now, certain things 
set the trigger and other things don't. Here - no explosion; 
therefore, being bad-mouthed isn't the sort of thing that he is 
particularly sensitive to. OTOH, when Harry cheeks him in class 
(therby undermining his authority, showing disrespect) - he reacts 
with real anger. 


Naama