Harry Potter and Ender's Game

[phoenixgod2000]

No: HPFGUIDX 128163



 
> Betsy:
> I don't want to get into a huge discussion about Peter Wiggin (not 
> the place, obviously) -- but here's my view on Voldemort.  
Voldemort 
> is evil, a true sociopath of Hitchcock-ian levels.  If Voldemort 
> gets his way he will destroy not only the muggle world but the 
> Wizarding World as well.  (I suspect that old Voldie was none too 
> pleased with his mother, either.  How could he hold her in 
anything 
> but contempt? A witch of her bloodlines consorting with a muggle, 
> and getting herself in such a bad state of dependence on that 
muggle 
> she dies when he deserts her.  No, I'm quite sure Voldemore would 
be 
> well pleased to see the WW burn.)  Peter, for all his many faults, 
> saves his world from a bloody war and leaves it in a state of 
> strong, healthy stability (all from Ender's Game).  

I agree that Peter uses his tools to a generally more positive end 
but I still see a strong connection between him and Voldemort. The 
way he lays low and builds his support sounds very similar to 
Voldemorts tactics. His personal level of sadism and love of being 
feared is again pretty similar (on a more juvenile level, of course) 
to Voldemort.  The way he manages to use the people around him, even 
when they hate him, seems pretty Voldemorty imo.  

Plus the sheer power of Peter's ego. Can't forget that part. 
 
> Hermione, on the other hand....  Of course I don't think the girl 
is 
> bent on world domination (though she does seem quite interested in 
> making over the current WW).  But she has a definite streak of 
> ruthlessness none of the other Hogwarts students have shown to 
> possess. <snip> Hermione is not stupid.  Part of her *had* to know 
she 
> was putting Umbridge's life on the line.  One could also argue 
that 
> her trick with the House Elves in OotP, hiding clothing about the 
> room, speaks to a certain ruthless disregard of other beings' 
> thoughts and desires. (Valentine would *never* show such a lack of 
> empathy.)  No, Hermione isn't nearly the shade of gray Peter 
Wiggin is, but she ain't no shining beacon of white either.

Hermione has Peter's holier than thou attitude, to be sure, but I 
think she is a lot less ruthless and a little more shortsighted than 
you give her credit for. she seemed pretty caught off guard by the 
sheer viciousness of the Centaurs.  Peter would never have put 
himself in danger that way without thinking things through a whole 
lot more. Plus, I personally think Hermione screams Valentine (to me 
at least). I just see the two of them in the same vein spiritually.

> Betsy:
> I think that while Graff's angst comes through in his weight gain 
> and his self-deprecating humor, Dumbledore's comes through in his 
> unwillingness to pull Harry into the war.  Of course, Graff has 
been 
> in the position of turning highly gifted children into weapons for 
> years before Ender comes on the scene.  Dumbledore is brand new to 
> the position.  I think the lack of experience comes out.  

This is where I think the OOTP characterization of DD falls down 
imo.  This is the same person who showed Harry how to travel through 
*time*. something that could get him wiped out of existence if he 
made a misstep.  And he did it in the name of man he couldn't 
possibly have been sure was innocent.  This was the guy who knows 
Harry killed a Basilisk in single combat and outflew a dragon.  
Before OOTP it seemed to me like Dumbledore did respect Harry's 
abilities and didn't want to coddle him. then OOTP comes along and 
poof! Wuss!Dumbledore makes his first appearance.

Graff and DD both needed children, and I just respect Graff's 
methods more.

> Betsy:
> It lends a certain strength to the argument that maybe a weapon 
> would prefer to be treated like a weapon. (Of course Ender has a 
> nervous breakdown mid-novel so there's that.) Seriously, I think 
> that was Dumbledore's big mistake -- the one he fully admits to.  
He 
> cannot see past the child Harry to see the strong wizard within.  

Once again, flaw in characterization. No evidence that before OOTP 
DD failed to see the strong wizard within.

 (Maybe Snape is one of the few who actually do? I admit, I threw 
> that in to raise ire. I'm that kind of bad. <eg>)

Don't do that to me! I'm young, but I could still stroke out!

>I fully expect 
> things to change in HBP (an expectation boosted by various covers) 
> and Dumbledore to start treating Harry like the strong wizard 
Harry can be.

I hope so. I want to see kick ass Harry in more than just fan fics.
 
>>Phoenixgod:
> <snip> 
> >The only thing Snape and Rackham have in common is that Snape 
> should be shot into a wide elipical orbit around earth too.<
> 
> Betsy:
> But where would that leave the Order?  Snape is one of its 
strongest 
> members.

'cause he was so useful in OOTP. I just don't see it.
 
> Betsy:
> Ah.  I see our differences over Snape are near insurmountable. (I 
> could say I was surprised but... <g>) 

True that!

 I actually think Snape *is* a 
> war-hero (not a celebrated one because - spy) and a good teacher. 

If I taught like Snape I wouldn't have the job I do. As for being a 
war hero, I don't think so. he is merely an uncharged war criminal. 
Plenty of nazi scientists did things that they should have been 
executed for, but they were given cushy jobs instead because they 
were judged more useful alive.  Even if DD *had* to spare Snape's 
life, there had to be a better way than giving him a job at 
Hogwarts.  I am a teacher and I find the very idea of Snape's 
teaching methods offensive and the fact that people defend him 
inconcievable.  I get some of the best results in my school on 
standardized tests and I do it without browbeating, insulting, or 
demeaning my students. If Snape can't do the same he shouldn't be 
teaching and DD shouldn't have hired him. no amount of Order use 
justifies letting that absolutely horrific human being anywhere near 
children and possibly sacrificing their education. 

> Betsy:
> Except of course Fake!Moody was *not* trying to help Harry win.

Sure he was. He was just doing it for really bad reasons.

>And > he didn't share any of his knowledge of the enemy with anyone 
(until > drugged). 

It certainly seemed to me like he was sharing some genuine insights 
with his students. the twins certainly think 'he really knows' (or 
something like that)

>And I wouldn't call his teaching style uncompromising.

Bouncing ferret discipline technique!
  
>And of course he reached a 
> level of teacher to student cruelty not matched until Umbridge 
> pulled out her blood quill.  And rather than leaving Harry in a 
> position of strength and stability, Fake!Moody was probably 
directly 
> responsible for some of Harry's paranoia and capslock-ing in 
OotP.  
> Fake!Moody was cool like a child molester is fun: the fact that 
the 
> kids loved him was all part of his sick trap. 

I agree with you but many of his lessons and advice saved Harry's 
life during and after GoF. I wonder how much of FakeMoody's lessons 
made it to the DA. He was a good teacher, maybe the best Harry's 
had, even if he was doing it for nefarious reasons.  the Imperious 
Resistance alone proved invaluable. 
 

> Betsy:
> Just going by Ender's Game alone, I think Bean provided more 
> background and moral support than anything else, especially with 
> his, "the enemy's gate is *down*" cry at the final battle.  Just 
as 
> Neville, merely by sticking by Harry's side and refusing to back 
> down in the battle at the DoM helped keep Harry going, I think.  I 
> don't think Neville will steal any of Harry's thunder (something I 
> didn't honestly see the Shadow books doing with Ender, myself) but 
I 
> think he may provide that extra bit of support, even if it's just 
in 
> the form of a rallying cry. 

Huh, I think you might be the first person I've ever talked to who 
didn't think Ender's Shadow stole Ender's thunder.  Bean was made 
out to be Ender's superior in almost every way except for leadership 
quality. Bean had a very power behind the throne mindset, but he 
lessed Ender in my view.

I do agree with you though that Neville was an important rallying 
point for Harry in the DoM battle.

> Betsy, who thinks Ender's Game is a classic piece of literature 
that 
> should be on everyone's bookshelf, and that the Shadow series is a 
> fun and exciting read that pales in comparison to the original, 
but 
> is well worth the read, if only for Bean.

Ender's Game is indeed a classic piece of Scifi literature and the 
rest of his books fall so far below that mark I can't even begin to 
express my disappointment.

phoenixgod2000, who doesn't want to talk about Snape anymore. he's 
too tired.