Harry, Ginny, and age appropriateness / Abusive Harry (combined answer)

[delwynmarch]

No: HPFGUIDX 136037

Combined answer: Marianne first, then Grindiloe, then Beckah.

Marianne wrote:
"Which is exactly why I believe, and my student's view supported, that
the Harry/Ginny relationship is a POSTIVE role model. "

Del replies:
It won't surprise you to be told that I disagree, huh :-) ?

Marianne wrote:
"1) Harry with Ginny shows neither the pleasure/pain/confusion that
Harry felt with Cho "

Del replies:
Myth number 1: True Love makes you feel happy all the time. 

Marianne wrote:
"3) Harry with Ginny shows that the girl has a better chance of
getting the guy of her dreams if she's being herself."

Del replies:
Except that JKR blew that one up by having Ginny reveal that she never
gave up on Harry. So Ginny was NOT being herself when she was dating
Michael and Dean. She was *never* attracted to either boy, she was
only pretending to be.

Marianne wrote:
"How many girls out there try and be something they're not just to get
a guy?"

Del replies:
As in: "Look, I'm over Harry, I'm dating other boys" ?

Marianne wrote: 
"In no way do I think that Ginny dated Michael and Dean to make Harry
jealous
"

Del replies:
Maybe, but that's still what happened, so that's still the message
that is given to young girls out there: "date other boys, it will make
the one you really want be jealous." Especially since it's the *third*
time that something like that happens: there was Hermione/Viktor/Ron,
and Cho/Cedric/Harry already.

Marianne wrote:
"5) Harry with Ginny shows that being friends first can lead to the
most satisfying kind of relationship. We read several times that Ginny
has made Harry happier than he has been in years
 that she is his
greatest source of comfort."

Del replies:
Hum, just for the record: we read those things ONCE each.

Marianne wrote:
"We read that she accepts and understands him. Perhaps she knows "if
you love something, set it free
" or maybe she'll devise a plan to let
Harry know she can be a help, not a risk. "

Del replies:
Do you want to know what *I* see?

I see a relationship that is deemed good by how it makes *the boy* feel.

I see a relationship in which the girl is obviously devoted to the
boy, but *not once* do we see the boy being devoted to the girl.

I see a relationship in which the boy calls the shots and the girl
meekly accepts his decisions.

I see a girl who is the Perfect Girl for the boy : she loves what he
loves - Quidditch, for example - , she knows exactly when to talk or
when to shut up, she knows when to act and when to do nothing, and so
on. I do NOT see a boy adjusting to a girl who is not The Perfect Girl
For Him.

I see a girl who hero-worships the boy.

For all those reasons and more, I see an extremely DANGEROUS depiction
of what a perfect romantic relationship looks like:

1. A girl must make her boy happy.

2. No reciprocation is necessary. The girl takes her pleasure from
making the boy happy, and from being with him.

3. A girl must let her boy take the major decisions for the couple.
She must not discuss his decisions.

4. A girl must be the Perfect Girl for her boy.

5. A girl must not expect her boy to adjust to her own personality.
Instead she must adjust to his.

6. A girl must not bother her boy with her needs and problems.

7. A girl must always be an asset and never a liability for her boy.
The day she becomes a liability, she must expect him to dump her.

Marianne wrote:  
"6) Harry doesn't fall for Ginny `cause she's pretty or popular or
skilled
 it's a lot more subtle than that. How much better is it for
our kids to see someone being physically attracted ONLY AFTER
realizing they like the other person for many more reasons first?"

Del replies:
Ginny is described as really popular in OoP. At the beginning of HBP,
when the Slytherins discuss Ginny, it is obvious that she has been
considered very attractive for quite a while already. So when Harry
falls for Ginny during the summer, she has been both popular and
attractive for a while already. Just as Cho had been.

Marianne wrote:
"7) Harry's breakup with Ginny (which my pre-teen student did not
think was the end) shows the kind of maturity and acceptance that I
hope all teens have. Ginny, for all I can guess, is not giving up on
Harry
 but she's letting him do what he Must. "

Del replies:
As in:

"- This is my decision.
- Yes dear, whatever you say dear."

Horrible.

Marianne wrote:
"We have to trust JKR that both Harry and Ginny are as happy,
comfortable, and important to each other as it says
 and despite
others' feelings to the contrary, I don't see any reason to believe
otherwise."

Del replies:
That's exactly where the danger lay: in ASSUMING.

How many girls assume that he won't do "it" again?

How many girls assume that they should be happy simply because they
are in a relationship with a desirable boy?

How many girls assume that if the boy is happy, then they should be
happy too?

How many girls assume that "it will get better over time"?

How many girls assume that starting an argument is a bad thing to do
and that they should rather simply agree with what the boy said?

Do you know how many? WAY TOO MANY for my taste. Typically, teenage
girls are the sacrificial kind: they will drop their own hobbies to
accompany their bf to his own, they will drop their own friends to
hang out with his gang, they will deny their own needs to keep their
bf happy and in the relationship, and so on.

And here goes JKR reinforcing that stereotype of the Perfect Girl!

I SO MUCH prefer Hermione's example! Hermione doesn't let Ron (or
Viktor) put her through her paces, she doesn't feel like she has to be
the Perfect Girl for him, she isn't afraid to make him unhappy or
angry, and she definitely won't let him take a one-sided decision
concerning them both.

Marianne wrote:
"JKR also accepts her responsibility by not showing so much detail
about Harry's strong feelings for Ginny and their private interaction
that it turns off young readers. Yes, adolescent girls are very
impressionable and yes, they often look to literature as a model for
relating to boys. JKR does not show anything that would scare off
readers, but shows what the result of a healthy relationship can be."

Del replies:
Except that she shows ONLY the BOY's side! Not a word about how the
GIRL feels. She makes the success of the relationship hang only on
what effect it has on the boy. And that is an extremely WRONG message
to give to impressionable teenage girls, IMO.

---

On to Grindieloe, in message 136016.

Grindieloe wrote:
"With that said, how can you continue to bring up abusive relationships?"

Del replies:
Because they are the perfect example of relationships that are not
what they appear to be. They very often appear to be happy,
fulfilling, beautiful, whatever, and even the victims often think of
them as wonderful, at least at first. But they are rotten at the core.

Grindieloe wrote:
"I see not one reason for anyone to believe that there was any kind of
an abusive relationship."

Del replies:
That's not what I said.

What I did say is that we don't see enough interaction between Harry
and Ginny to *exclude* an abusive relationship. We know that Harry is
happy, period. Well, both abusers and victims are often happy at
first, so it doesn't mean anything.

Grindieloe wrote:
"Ginny would not be as comfortable around Harry if this were true,"

Del replies:
Not true. If the victims were always uncomfortable around their
abusers, then many more people would notice that something is wrong.
Abuse is so common and is allowed to last for so long precisely
because the victims do NOT show to the public eye that something is wrong.

Grindieloe wrote:
"and what about Ron?"

Del replies:
What about Ron??

Grindieloe wrote:
"Harry would never disrespect Ginny or Ron in that manner."

Del replies:
That's exactly what many people say when they find out that someone is
abusing someone else: "S/he would NEVER!"

Grindieloe wrote:
"I just don't see how this can even be considered a possibility when
using our imaginations regarding their romantic relationship."

Del replies:
Let me see:

* I see a boy who imposes his will on his girl.

* I see a boy who doesn't care to hurt his girl as long as it makes
things easier for him.

* I see a relationship that is deemed good because it makes the boy
happy, but nothing is said about the girl.

* I see a relationship where we don't know anything of what happens
when they are together.

* I remember that this boy had the habit of shouting loud and long to
force his female best friend to shut up in the last book.

* I also remember that this boy didn't care one bit what his former
girlfriend needed, and that he got angry when it was explained to him
what her emotional needs were. I remember that this boy had a mental
image of what he wanted his former girlfriend to be, and that he
didn't like it when she didn't conform.

* And of course, I remember that this boy was raised without love,
that he was emotionally abused or at least neglected as a kid, and
that he doesn't have a parental figure to turn to for counsel anymore.

For all those reasons and more, I see a boy who is a potential abuser
indeed. Maybe not a physical one, but an emotional one for sure.

Now, I sincerely doubt that JKR would make Harry abuse Ginny. But the
fact remains that she gave many clues that he could be, and none that
their relationship is in fact healthy.

Grindieloe wrote: 
"I am a Harry/Ginny supporter.  You are not.  The End."

Del replies:
How many times will I have to say it? I AM a H/G supporter, I ALWAYS
was a H/G supporter. But that doesn't mean that I am going to accept
this fake and cheap romance as The Real Deal. Just because I was
bought to the idea long before HBP came out doesn't mean that JKR can
screw it up like that.

And I notice that you didn't address any of my counter-examples.

---

Beckah wrote, in message 136034:
"First off, speaking as abuse survivor, there is absolutely no
evidence to even suggest that h/g had anything other than a happy,
loving, young love, relationship."

Del replies:
I disagree. There *are* signs.

Beckah wrote:
"Secondly, and again with all due respect, in one single post you
(del) have turned hp into not only an abuser but a rapist - doesn't
this seem like an extremely long stretch to you??"

Del replies:
No it doesn't, because it happens way too often in the Real World.
Nice boys who don't know enough about love and romance to know where
to stop, and girls who don't know what they can accept or not.

Beckah wrote:
"This is our hero, someone that has shown himself to have his flaws -
as do all of us - but someone that has also shown himself to be
comapssionate, caring, kind, and (do we even need to discuss the
number of times this gets brought up??) having an amazing capacity to
love."

Del replies:
I'm an abuse survivor too. I know for a fact that abusers can be
compassionate, caring, kind and loving. The stereotype that only bad,
selfish, cruel people are abusers is just that: a stereotype. If more
people knew how flawed that stereotype is, maybe there would be less
abuse in this world.

Now, as I said, I don't think that JKR means for Harry to abuse Ginny.
However, way too many signs are there for my taste, and JKR does not
address them. In fact, she even seems to consider them a good thing!
So I'm asking: how are girls supposed to be concerned about those
signs, when JRK is telling them that it's OK as long as the boy really
loves them, and when she doesn't SHOW them what a loving relationship
looks like? All she does is tell them that a loving relationship makes
the boy happy. Many spouse abuse victims similarly believe that if
they can make their partner perfectly happy, then the abuse will
stop... And many teenage girls believe that if they make their boy
perfectly happy, then they (the girls) will be perfectly happy too,
and the relationship will be an endless bliss.

I'm sorry, but I just don't SEE the romance between Harry and Ginny
being such a good thing, and I will not settle for anyone TELLING me
that it is. This is exactly what too many girls already do: they TELL
themselves that everything is OK, when it's not.

Del