SHIP: Harry, Ginny and me accepting Del's challenge

[Ladi lyndi]

No: HPFGUIDX 136273

delwynmarch  wrote:
 
Everyone is not like each of us. Just because we don't read a scene
in a certain way doesn't mean that nobody else does, and vice versa.
And not everyone has the same life experience as each of us does: some of us have never had a sweet teen romance to project on Harry and Ginny, for example. So I'm glad to know that there are people out there who have had such a romance that they can project on Harry and Ginny, but for someone like me who didn't have that luck, the H/G romance is simply *empty*.

Lynn:

And, as others, including myself, have stated, JKR cannot write for every person and address every experience each individual reading her books will have or have not had.  To expect an author to do that is ridiculous.  I never had that "sweet teen romance" either but I can still "see" it between Harry and Ginny.  I'm sorry you haven't had the kinds of experiences that allow you to "see" positively what we are being told and, even worse, apparently have experiences that bring up negative impressions.  Again, an author can't anticipate each and every person who will read their book and write for them.

A big problem is we can't show you what you can't see.  People have given you very specific examples that "show" things to them.  It either hasn't created a picture for you or it has created a negative one.  

delwynmarch  wrote:
All I was asking for was for JKR to *show* us the relationship
between Harry and Ginny instead of *telling* us about it. And no, it
would *not* take hundreds of pages, that's a totally fallacious
argument. 
 
Lynn:
 
Well, maybe it wouldn't take long for what YOU need to see.  However, then the author would have to write a few lines for what I need to see and what EVERYONE ELSE needs to see.  Then again, given all your counter-arguments, I do think it would have taken much more than just a few sentences to satisfy you.
 
That said, just because you think a few lines will satisfy you doesn't mean it will satisfy the next person.  And here, we're just talking about one section of the Potter universe.  I'm with Prep0strus, it's the R/H ship with which I have a problem.  There's a lot more I want to see and have explained.  What about Fleur/Bill?  I don't get that one at all.  Where's my explanation for that?  How did Tonks/Lupin happen and we haven't even gotten out of the ships.  I won't begin to list my problems with other things happening such as the amount of bullying that is allowed.
 
I can either choose to rail against the author for not being responsible or accept that she wrote the best book she was able to write based on her POV.  After all, if I'm that concerned, I can write my own book to address my concerns.  I just better be prepared for those who then tell me I didn't address the concerns to their satisfaction or live up to the responsibility they think I should have.  There's a difference between saying one wishes the author had addressed a certain issue in a different way than saying they shirked their responsibility because the author didn't address the issue the way the person wanted it to be addressed.
 
delwynmarch  wrote:
 
What about my counter-arguments about the H/G romance? (see post
135989, at the end)?

Lynn:
 
Personally, I don't think this will do a lot of good as you and I are coming from different POVs.  From a lot of these points, I get the impression what you are looking for is what would come from a long-term husband/wife type of relationship and not a very short-term one that begins as a friendship and becomes more.  However, I will try to explain how I see these different points.
 
delwynmarch  wrote:
 
1. The Kiss: not a word about Ginny, what she looks like after the
kiss, what she does, nothing.
 
Lynn:
 
She leaves with Harry which pretty much tells me everything I need to know at this point.  I don't need to see that she was breathless, happy, ecstatic.  The telling part to me was the hard, blazing look on Ginny's face before she threw her arms around Harry which gave Harry the okay to kiss her.  The several long moments, or half an hour or possibly several sunlit days tells me that Ginny wasn't struggling to get away.
 
I quite like how JKR did this scene.  It is in the reactions of others that we can see the effect of the kiss on Harry and Ginny.  Dean wouldn't be holding a shattered glass, Romilda Vane wouldn't be wanting to throw something and Hermione wouldn't be beaming if both Harry and Ginny didn't look like the kiss was a good thing.
 
A big point of the scene wasn't Ginny or even the Kiss, it was how Ron would react to the ship.
 
delwynmarch  wrote:

2. Not a word about how Ginny feels about the relationship. She's
finally got the guy she's always wanted, and yet we don't hear a word about how it makes her feel. And we are not told that it affects her behaviour either.
 
Lynn:
 
As has been said before, we're seeing this from Harry's POV, not Ginny's so we don't know what's inside her head or if her behavior is different.  That said, why would her behavior be different?  In fact, I would be concerned if her behavior was all that changed.  She and Harry are building on a friendship.  If her behavior is pretty steady then the friendship is being allowed to remain as the cornerstone of the relationship.  To me, that's a good thing.
 
delwynmarch  wrote:


3. When Harry sees the Dark Mark over the castle, and when he hears
that someone has been killed, his fears are equally shared between
Ron, Hermione and Ginny.
 
Lynn:
 
I don't get this question.  I think the fact Ginny is up with Ron and Hermione and not down with Neville and Luna, where she would have been last year, speaks volumes of Ginny's place in Harry's life.  Then again, I don't think a 6 week dating relationship should take precedence over a 6 year friendship.  How Harry reacted is, to me, a very healthy reaction.  For Harry to put Ron and Hermione down with Neville and Luna would have spoken to me as H/G being unhealthy.  That would mean he is pushing aside his friends in favor of his 'love'.  That type of alienation is a red flag for me.
 
delwynmarch  wrote:

4. We don't get any indication that he's *particularly* afraid for
Ginny when he sees her being used as a practice target by a DE.
 
Lynn:
 
What did you want?  To see Harry paralyzed in fear at Ginny fighting?  He sees Ginny is in trouble and hexes the person attacking Ginny.  What was Harry supposed to say, "Ginny go hide I don't want you fighting."?   If that had been written then we'd hear that Harry was domineering and subjugating Ginny, 'imposing his will' on her.  They are in the middle of a battle.  Harry's focus is on Snape and Draco escaping and going after them.  I think the point can be made that even though Harry saw the others fighting, including Ron, the only one he stopped to help was Ginny so Harry was looking out for Ginny.  Then again, that also could be made into a negative that Ginny couldn't handle things herself.  See how difficult it is to show things?
 
delwynmarch  wrote:

5. After Ginny takes him away from DD's body, he does not look for any comfort from her. And they don't share any intimate kind of support in the hospital wing either.
 
Lynn:
 
We see time and time again that Harry withdraws into himself rather than seeking external comfort.  Whether that's his nature or something he's learned because he never had that outside comfort we just don't know at this time.  Harry's behavior is consistent with what we've seen all along.  We also see that Harry really hasn't had much experience in how to give comfort to people who need it.  It's just not something he's learned because he simply hasn't really seen it very often.
 
That said, Ginny is the one who can draw Harry away from Dumbledore's body even if he doesn't recognize it on a conscious level.  I don't think that he's responding to her on a romantic level but on a friendship level.  I conclude this based on their conversation going up to the hospital wing.  Harry is talking to her as a friend, not as his girlfriend.  His concern was for all the people involved, not just Ginny who he can see is okay, at least physically.  Hermione runs and hugs Harry and that is consistent with their friendship, Harry accepts Hermione's need for physical comfort.  We never saw hugs playing a part in the friendship between Harry and Ginny. So, while I would have liked to have seen Harry give Ginny a hug when she talked about Bill, I understand why he didn't.  I would have given her the hug but that's not Harry's style.  And realistically, I probably wouldn't have given the hug if I was 16.  It's when I became a mother that I became a lot more physically
 demonstrative.
 
Again, if Harry had excluded everyone else and just concentrated on Ginny, I would think their relationship quite unhealthy.

delwynmarch  wrote:

6. Ginny is not waiting for him when he comes back from McGonagall's
office, and he doesn't look for her.
 
Lynn:
 
And this indicates what?  Harry didn't go looking for Hermione either, he went looking for Ron, someone who has been with him since the beginning.  Harry went looking for the male friend.  I can see how Harry can't deal with emotions at this point.  Again, we've seen this behavior before.
 
It takes more than a few weeks to establish the type of intimacy needed to share the type of pain both Ginny and Harry would be going through.  I would guess that Ginny and Hermione are together at this time.  They've established that intimacy.
 
I would see Harry forsaking Ron and/or Hermione in favor of Ginny or Ginny wanting Harry instead of someone she's more intimate with during this time as unrealistic based on their experiences and intimacy.  
 
delwynmarch  wrote:

7. Between DD's death and his burial, it is written that "Harry, Ron, Hermione and Ginny were spending all of their time together." It says ALL of their time. No indication whatsoever that Harry and Ginny spend any time just the two of them together. Which makes the "it was too hard to forgo his best source of comfort" fall extremely flat for me. If Ginny is supposed to be an even better source of comfort than Ron and Hermione, then why say that all four of them were always together?
 
Lynn:
 
We read this differently.  I don't see it meaning Ginny but rather meaning Ron, Hermione and Ginny.  The comfort isn't the romance but rather the friendship they all share.  It's the friendship of all three he wasn't ready to forgo.
 
delwynmarch  wrote:


8. "'She's not that bad,' said Harry. 'Ugly, though,' he added
hastily, as Ginny raised her eyebrows, and she let out a reluctant
giggle."

A BIG no-no for me, when someone doesn't feel free to say what they think.
 
Lynn:
 
I like this scene myself, it is so real to me.   Hands up all the guys who have ever been asked by a girlfriend or wife if something they are wearing makes them look fat?  Anyone ever had to guts to say, yea, it makes you look like a whale and live to tell the tale?  How about those who have made a positive comment about a member of the opposite sex, seen the look at their spouses face and hastily added something ridiculously negative prompting the type a response Harry got from Ginny?  There are times you need to say exactly what you feel, something both Harry and Ginny have done.  This isn't one of those times.  This, to me, showed Harry's understanding of Ginny's feelings on the subject of Fleur.
 
delwynmarch  wrote:

9. Ginny goes to bed after stating that she hasn't slept that well
since DD's death, and Harry doesn't even get up to give her a private good-night kiss or a comforting hug. Now *that* speaks tons to me. Negatively unfortunately.
 
Lynn:
 
Why should he?  This is the type of scene that plays out in my home every night.  The first person going to bed gives the goodnight kiss.  A comment about not sleeping well will only prompt a why if the reason is unknown, nothing if known as in this case.  This scene just speaks to me of them being comfortable with each other, of understanding what is going on with each of them which is, for me, very positive.  I also don't think Ron would have looked away pointedly if it was just a little peck.
 
delwynmarch  wrote:

10. Percy is present at breakfast on the morning of DD's burial. We
are told that Ron pretends not to have noticed him, but nothing about Ginny who is sitting right next to Harry.
 
Lynn:
 
What does that have to do with their relationship?  We're told that because of Ron not because of Ginny or Harry or their relationship.  I think it foreshadows Ron wanting to punch Percy which we read later on.
 
delwynmarch  wrote:

11. At the same breakfast, Ginny gives Harry a nudge in the *ribs*.
That's unthinkable to me. If they are so physically comfortable with
each other, then there are hundreds of much nicer ways to attract his attention.
 
Lynn:
 
Why unthinkable?  Yes, if she had poked him hard with her elbow I can see it as a problem but a nudge in the ribs?  That's a pretty standard thing to do when you don't want others to see you're waking someone from their thoughts or to let them know they need to pay attention to something.  It's also something that can only be done if you are sitting very close to each other.  Just because you may not like it yourself doesn't mean there is something inherently negative about it.  Many people use that as a means of silent communication without taking it as negative.   My poor husband has had me nudging him in the ribs while patting his arm if I really want his attention about something.
 
delwynmarch  wrote:

12. When they go to be seated for the funeral, it is written that
"Harry, Ron, Hermione and Ginny filed into seats at the end of a row
beside the lake". Ginny is included in the Quatuor, she and Harry are not singled out as a couple. The order of the names doesn't even
reflect the seating arrangement, since apparently, from what I
understand, Harry is a the end of the row, with Ginny next to him, and then Ron&Hermione.
 
Lynn:
 
Again, I don't get the significance of this.  You seem to want to make them separate from other people which to me would be unhealthy.  The underlying relationship here is the friendship between all of them and the comfort level they've come to due to that friendship.  If anything, the fact the names aren't in such a specific couple order underscores the friendship aspect and not the romantic aspect.
 
delwynmarch  wrote:

13. It is specified that Tonks and Lupin are holding hands, but no
such specification for Harry and Ginny.
 
Lynn:
 
Sorry, the exact quote is "...Tonks ...; Remus Lupin with whom she seemed to be holding hands;" (UK p. 641)  So, it appears that way but we don't know for sure.  Yes, that's being pedantic but since we're getting so picky, it seemed appropriate.
 
That section is to let us know that it appears Tonks and Lupin have become a couple and has no bearing on Harry and Ginny as we already know their relationship.  
 
delwynmarch  wrote:

14. If Ginny and Harry were holding hands, Ginny wouldn't need to
whisper in Harry's ear or to nudge him to attract his attention.
 
Lynn:
 
That's not true.  As good a relationship as I have with my husband, we don't use hand-holding language to convey anything besides I love you or the like.  It's used to convey emotion, not information.  I still need to speak for him to know what I'm thinking - in most things.  Just how exactly was Ginny supposed to point Harry to the sound of the merpeople by holding his hand?  That took words.  The nudge, again, is to point his attention to something.  Unless a couple have determined that a squeeze of the hand means I want your attention, using hand-holding language will not convey what Ginny was trying to convey.
 
delwynmarch  wrote:

15. When Harry starts to cry, he looks away from Ginny and the others.  That does NOT speak of emotional intimacy to me. Contrast this with Ron holding Hermione and stroking her hair (something we never saw Harry do with Ginny), while openly crying at the same time.
 
Lynn:
 
This speaks about Harry, not about their relationship.  We see over and over again how Harry holds sensitive emotions inside.  He won't cry in front of Ron or Hermione either.  Even when he wanted to howl over Cedric's death, he kept it in.  To expect him to have been able to develop the type of intimacy that would enable him to openly cry in front of Ginny in such a short period of time is unrealistic.  Talk about sending the wrong message.  Even after six years he doesn't feel that comfortable with Ron and Hermione.  
 
Harry spent a childhood learning how to not show certain emotions.  He learned that certain things, like crying in front of people, will make things worse, not better.  I can pretty much imagine the reaction of Vernon and Dudley to any tears from Harry.  Harry has learned to make that private.  A person doesn't overcome that in a short time no matter how much they love someone.  
 
delwynmarch  wrote:

<snip text>
Ok, there are SO many things wrong in this scene that I don't even
know where to start!

16.1. The telling is opposed to the showing.

* At the beginning of the scene, JKR tells us that Ginny knows what
Harry is about to do and why. And yet her very first question
contradicts that statement.

* JKR says that they understand each other perfectly, and yet Harry
doesn't understand that Ginny doesn't care about becoming a prime
target for LV, and Ginny doesn't understand that Harry is afraid to be hurt again.
 
Lynn:
 
One difference is I see that question as more of a statement, not a question from Ginny.  That question opens the dialog in which we learn what Harry is doing and why.  If JKR had left it as they understood each other perfectly we as the readers would still be in the dark.
 
Where does it say that Harry doesn't know that Ginny wouldn't care about being a target and that Ginny doesn't understand Harry's feelings?  Again I see that as a device so the readers will know what is happening.  As was pointed out in another post (sorry, don't remember the author right now), Ginny and Harry have silently understood each other.  The difference is that the reader also knew what was happening without having to have the Ginny/Harry dialog.
 
delwynmarch  wrote:

16.2. There is absolutely NO emotional support given or received by
either Ginny or Harry. Neither indicates that they know what the other is going through, nor do they offer words of sympathy.
 
Lynn:
 
And you want what?  To see emotional support the way you would show it or have it shown you?  I see emotional support in their words.  The way Harry tells Ginny he wishes they'd had longer, the way Ginny lets Harry know she understands his need to go after Voldemort.  This is so realistic to me based upon their entire relationship, not just the short romantic one.


delwynmarch  wrote:
 16.3. Harry dumps Ginny and doesn't offer her any consolation. No "I love you", no last kiss, no "I'm so sorry", no "I don't mean to hurt you", no nothing.
 
Lynn:
 
Sorry, I think saying I'm leaving because I don't want to see you killed because we're together is a pretty good indication of his love.  The miserable gesture spoke volumes, to me at least.
 
delwynmarch  wrote:

16.4. Harry doesn't dump Ginny to protect *her*: he does it to protect *himself*. He's not afraid that she would die: he's afraid of what HE would feel if she died. And he doesn't care about making her miserable, as long as he can protect himself. That's not sacrifice, that's selfishness (and trust me, I *know* the difference, just ask my husband).
 
Lynn:
 
I'm sorry for you if that's your experience.  If my husband would say to me what Harry says to Ginny I would know he loves me and wants to protect me, not think he's being selfish and protecting himself.  It's the relationship that underscores the words and Harry has proven he puts others before himself.
 
delwynmarch  wrote:

16.5. Harry *imposes* his will on Ginny. He gives her NO say in the
decision. A huge no-no for me. And when she tries to give her opinion, Harry basically accuses her of wanting to hurt him.
 
Lynn:
 
You've lost me.  At this point bitterness about something appears to be clouding how this is being seen.  First, as has been pointed out by others, breaking up does not take two.  Second, when Ginny gives her opinion of why Harry wants to break up, Harry explains to her why he feels the need, how he would feel as if he would be to blame for her death and she would still be alive if not for him.  He's not basically accusing her of wanting to hurt him.  And no, I don't think something like this can necessarily be a joint decision.  There are times a person has to do what they feel is the right thing to do no matter the effect it may have on others.  Just ask anyone who's had to be the holdout on the jury of a particularly volatile case where they know their decision is going to crush someone.
 
delwynmarch  wrote:

16.6. *What* were they talking about during all those hours together, if Ginny didn't even get around to tell Harry about Hermione telling her to get a life??
 
Lynn:
 
What did they talk about all summer?  Just because it might have been the first thing on your agenda doesn't mean it would be the first thing on someone else's.  I don't think I ever directly told my husband what it was that prompted me to speak to him the first time.  He first found out when I answered that question posed by someone else.  He and I had life to talk about, which was much more important and interesting.  I don't think you can judge a relationship on how soon they discussed every detail of how they finally came together.  Personally, I think the first thing they would end up discussing was the reaction of Ginny's family.
 
delwynmarch  wrote:

16.7. They are both deluding themselves as for the real reason they
didn't get together earlier. Harry says it's just because he didn't
ask Ginny sooner, when the real reason is that he simply never saw
Ginny before, he was completely smitten with Cho. And Ginny says it's because Harry was too busy saving the world, which is not true either.
 
Lynn:
 
Again, I don't see where you get that from the conversation.  The way I read it, they both acknowledge that Harry hadn't thought of Ginny as a partner prior to this year.  Harry is expressing his regret that he didn't see it sooner and Ginny is expressing that Harry's thoughts haven't always been on things romantic.  Harry's main focus was never on Cho, she was a sideline.  Now that was a good example of how not to have a relationship.  Sorry, don't see anything delusional in what Harry and Ginny are saying.  Perhaps you would have been happier if there had been a big fight with lots of recriminations? 
 
delwynmarch  wrote:

16.8. "I knew you wouldn't be happy unless you were hunting LV".
Happy... Seems like Ginny isn't the most important thing in Harry's
life indeed.
 
Lynn:
 
And when my husband told me, after 9/11, that if asked he would be volunteering to go into a war zone (he's in the military), it never occurred to me that I or our daughter weren't the most important things in life to him.  Sometimes in life, there are things that are just important to do no matter who you have to leave behind.
 
delwynmarch  wrote:

16.9. "Maybe that's why I like you so much." The hero-worship is still there. Ginny likes Harry because Harry is a knight in shining armor. I don't consider *that* to be a sign of deep and mature love.
 
Lynn:
 
You see it as hero-worship.  I see it as respecting the integrity and resolve that Harry has to finish something that needs to be done.  It's one reason I love my husband.  He's willing to go to war to obtain peace and I consider that I have a deep and mature love for him and not just hero-worship.  
 
If Ginny was still in the hero-worship phase she wouldn't be comfortable around Harry and wouldn't be able to put him in his place the way she has done.  I see her as over the hero-worship and instead seeing him for the man he is becoming.
 
delwynmarch  wrote:

17. People have said that Harry dumping Ginny is a sign of his deep
and mature love for her. How can this be, since Harry is dumping
*everyone*, including Ron and Hermione? Harry wants to go *alone*, he says so himself. He expects Ron and Hermione to know that too, which shows how little he understands *them*, which in turn doesn't bode well of his understanding of Ginny.
 
Lynn:
 
Does Harry love Ginny?  Yep.  Does he love her the way a man married to a woman for 10 years would?  Nope.  They haven't had time to establish that type of love, friendship yes, romantic love?  No.  If he didn't really love Ginny, in some way, he would be selfish and only care to bring along the comfort she gives him.  Instead, he's worried that she'll be more of a target than she already is because of their relationship.  His hope is that with the relationship over Voldemort won't seek out Ginny to make her a target.  Gee, shades of Dumbledore and Harry in OoP.  
 
Harry is also thinking about Ron and Hermione when he wants to dump them as well.  This is pretty standard Harry stuff by now.  Harry cares that he isn't putting his friends in harms way.  Personally I think he takes their refusal to be left behind a whole lot better than he usually does.
 
delwynmarch  wrote:


18. When being told that he must come to the Burrow for Bill and
Fleur's wedding, Harry does not, not for one moment, think of Ginny.
One would think that the words "the Burrow" and "Ginny" would be
associated in Harry's mind, after all the telling about how Harry got closer to Ginny after spending the summer with her at the Burrow. But no! Harry thinks of the Burrow, he thinks of what a happy time it will be, and he thinks of how good it will be to have some peaceful in company of Ron and Hermione, but NO thought *whatsoever* of Ginny come to his mind.
 
Lynn:
 
And he's not thinking about anyone else he'll see there either.  No, his mind is on what the future holds in store and he's thinking that the three of them will have one more day of peace before they go to war.  Seems pretty natural to me. 
 
For all your protestations of an unhealthy relationship, I find the all-consuming relationship you appear to be looking for to be what I would think is unhealthy.  What I've seen is a friendship that's grown into something more.  Is it a mature relationship?  Of course not.  First, they are 16 and 15 years old with all the growth that still needs to happen and second they haven't been together long enough to have established the type of relationship you appear to be looking for to "show" that they are this couple.  
 
What I have seen is the beginning of a very healthy relationship.  They have not lost themselves in each other but rather are still two individuals who are learning about each other.  They don't exclude others but include them in their relationship.  Harry does come with the type of upbringing that makes it difficult for him to be demonstrative.  He has a very protective nature.
 
I am also one that has the opinion that Ginny isn't going to let Harry go quietly.  Her not causing this great big scene at the funeral speaks more of her understanding the type of person Harry is and giving him the time he needs before further advancing her arguments than of her quietly acquiescing.  
 
The biggest problem I see with this book is that it is part one of two and many of the issues brought up here may very well be addressed in the second part.








		
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