SHIP: Harry, Ginny and me accepting Del's challenge

[delwynmarch]

No: HPFGUIDX 136304

Lynn wrote:
"And, as others, including myself, have stated, JKR cannot write for
every person and address every experience each individual reading her
books will have or have not had."

Del replies:
No, she can't. But that's precisely why I have a problem with her
*expecting* that all her readers will be able to fill in the blanks in
the H/G romance.

As I said in another post, I can understand that she'd do that for a
minor romance, like Fleur/Bill, or Lupin/Tonks. For those romances,
she can take the risk that some of her readers won't understand or
relate. Those are minor points, minor characters, so it doesn't matter.

But Harry and Ginny are major characters, and their romance is a major
event in the hero's life. So the fact that JKR didn't take any measure
to ensure that a vast majority of her readers would understand their
romance and relate to it seems like a major overlook to me.

Unless, of course, she did *not* mean this romance to be a major
event, just a nice little addition, which your post has made me
realise is very much possible.

Lynn wrote:
"A big problem is we can't show you what you can't see."

Del replies:
Wrong. You did just that with your post :-) And some people who had
the dubious honour of "fighting" hard against me on the -Feedback list
some time ago would tell you that one should never assume that Del
can't change her mind or can't be made to see what she doesn't see yet.

Lynn wrote:
"Personally, I don't think this will do a lot of good as you and I are
coming from different POVs."

Del replies:
Wrong. It actually did a lot of good. You'll see.

Lynn wrote:
"From a lot of these points, I get the impression what you are looking
for is what would come from a long-term husband/wife type of
relationship and not a very short-term one that begins as a friendship
and becomes more."

Del replies:
Quite a few people *have* said that Harry and Ginny have a mature
relationship, which I thought meant that they saw it as much more than
a very short-term relationship between two teenagers. If we now agree
that the H/G romance is not meant to be anything special, and that the
breaking up scene is *not* supposed to indicate that they had such a
deep and meaningful relationship, then most of my problems disappear.

lynn wrote:
"The telling part to me was the hard, blazing look on Ginny's face
before she threw her arms around Harry which gave Harry the okay to
kiss her."

Del replies:
Hey :-) That "hard, blazing look" does not mean *anything* to me :-) I
still can't figure out what it's supposed to look like or what it's
supposed to convey.

Lynn wrote:
"A big point of the scene wasn't Ginny or even the Kiss, it was how
Ron would react to the ship."

Del replies:
Except that we readers already knew that he would approve: he
literally tried to shove Ginny into Harry's arms at the end of OoP. 

Lynn wrote:
"What did you want?  To see Harry paralyzed in fear at Ginny fighting?"

Del replies:
No, just a little stomach-twisting, or something like that.

Lynn wrote:
"I think the point can be made that even though Harry saw the others
fighting, including Ron, the only one he stopped to help was Ginny so
Harry was looking out for Ginny."

Del replies:
Extremely good point.

Lynn wrote:
"That said, Ginny is the one who can draw Harry away from Dumbledore's
body even if he doesn't recognize it on a conscious level.  I don't
think that he's responding to her on a romantic level but on a
friendship level.  I conclude this based on their conversation going
up to the hospital wing.  Harry is talking to her as a friend, not as
his girlfriend."

Del replies:
Well, yes, exactly! But I didn't think it was supposed to be a good
thing!?

Again, I repeat: if we are assuming that their relationship is barely
more than their friendship (which is big), then I have very few
problems. It's when I am told that they have this deep, meaningful,
mature relationship that I don't get it.

Lynn wrote:
"It takes more than a few weeks to establish the type of intimacy
needed to share the type of pain both Ginny and Harry would be going
through.  I would guess that Ginny and Hermione are together at this
time.  They've established that intimacy."

Del replies:
I completely agree. And that's why I had a problem with that
supposedly deep and oh-so-special romance.

Lynn wrote:
"We read this differently.  I don't see it meaning Ginny but rather
meaning Ron, Hermione and Ginny.  The comfort isn't the romance but
rather the friendship they all share.  It's the friendship of all
three he wasn't ready to forgo."

Del replies:
That's not what everyone else has been saying! I've read again and
again that it is *Ginny* and Ginny only that is supposed to be "his
best source of comfort".

Lynn wrote:
"Just because you may not like it yourself doesn't mean there is
something inherently negative about it.  Many people use that as a
means of silent communication without taking it as negative."

Del replies:
Yes, but that's where the absence of exposition of the H/G
relationship comes in. I haven't seen Ginny do that to Harry before,
and I haven't seen him reacting to it, so I don't know if they are
supposed to consider it as positive.

Remember why Ginny and Dean broke up? Because he always wanted to help
Ginny through the portrait hole. Ginny hates that. I don't. It would
never occur to me that this would be something so awful to a girl as
to make her want to break up.

Lynn wrote:
"You seem to want to make them separate from other people which to me
would be unhealthy."

Del replies:
That's only because I have been *told* that they are separate from
other people. JKR tells us in the book that they spend lots of time
together before DD's death, and it is the understanding of many
readers that they have a very special relationship. I don't see that
at all, but I am told that it is there.

Lynn wrote:
"To expect him to have been able to develop the type of intimacy that
would enable him to openly cry in front of Ginny in such a short
period of time is unrealistic."

Del replies:
Well, I did feel that I was expected to believe that they had attained
a deep level of emotional intimacy and understanding...

Lynn wrote:
"One difference is I see that question as more of a statement, not a
question from Ginny.  That question opens the dialog in which we learn
what Harry is doing and why.  If JKR had left it as they understood
each other perfectly we as the readers would still be in the dark."

Del replies:
Not me :-p The text was crystal clear to me, I could have done without
the dialogue. In fact, the dialogue muddied things up for me.

Lynn wrote:
"And you want what?  To see emotional support the way you would show
it or have it shown you?  I see emotional support in their words.  The
way Harry tells Ginny he wishes they'd had longer, the way Ginny lets
Harry know she understands his need to go after Voldemort.  This is so
realistic to me based upon their entire relationship, not just the
short romantic one."

Del replies:
Now that you point it out, it makes sense. But because there is no
previous material to help me decode it, I just didn't see it. If there
had been a decent exposition of their relationship, showing how they
gave and received emotional support, I would have had a chance to
recognise it during the break-up scene.

I, Del, wrote earlier:
"16.4. Harry doesn't dump Ginny to protect *her*: he does it to
protect *himself*. He's not afraid that she would die: he's afraid of
what HE would feel if she died. And he doesn't care about making her
miserable, as long as he can protect himself. That's not sacrifice,
that's selfishness (and trust me, I *know* the difference, just ask my
husband)."

Lynn responded:
"I'm sorry for you if that's your experience."

Del replies:
It's my husband (my boyfriend at the time) you should be sorry for,
I'm the one who did the dumping under the pretense of protecting him.
That's why I *know* that it was ultimately selfishness and not
sacrifice that was guiding me. Even though I thought I was doing it to
protect him, I came to realise that the only person I was trying to
protect was me.

Of course I'm not Harry, so I shouldn't assume that Harry does it for
the same reasons that I did it. But because so little help is given me
in the text to help me understand what he's doing (and also, frankly,
because it's downright silly: Ginny is no safer whether she's with
Harry or not), I can't help but apply my own experience to his actions.

(Incidentally, my then-boyfriend and I got back together almost right
away because I was so shocked and surprised when he told me I had
dumped him. I felt I was being so self-sacrificing, so, well, noble
and good, that his use of that term, with all the cruelty it entailed,
felt like a slap. Made me reconsider what I had done, real fast...)

Lynn wrote:
"First, as has been pointed out by others, breaking up does not take two."

Del replies:
But Harry didn't even try to discuss the matters over with Ginny. He
didn't try to see how she felt about it, or if they could find a
solution that would please them both. He simply imposed on her the
solution that was most agreeable for him, without caring that perhaps
it was the one that hurt her most.

That's where the lesson from the Lupin/Tonks ship comes in IMO: Lupin
thought he was doing a favour to Tonks by staying away from her, when
in fact he was doing the most hurtful thing he could do, sending her
straight into depression.

Tonks and Ginny are both fighters. They are not afraid of taking
risks, but they can't stand being left behind, it drives them crazy.

This is a case of choosing what is easy over what is right, IMO. It
was easier for Lupin to stay away from Tonks, and for Harry to break
up with Ginny, but was it *right*? I'm not sure. If their so-called
"best thing to do" ends up being something that does more damage to
their girl than any other solution would, I don't call it right.

Lynn wrote:
"There are times a person has to do what they feel is the right thing
to do no matter the effect it may have on others."

Del replies:
Hurting the person you claim to love in order to avoid being hurt
yourself is *not* doing the right thing IMO.

Going straight against the wishes of a person you claim to respect as
your equal, for no other reason than you think you are more right than
they are and you know better than them what is good for them, is not
right either IMO.

And finally, confining the person you love into a role that they
simply can't fill is definitely not doing the right thing IMO.

Lynn wrote:
"What did they talk about all summer?  Just because it might have been
the first thing on your agenda doesn't mean it would be the first
thing on someone else's."

Del replies:
And that's precisely why I needed to be told what they were talking
about. Because when I do apply my own experience on to them, it simply
doesn't work. 

Lynn wrote:
"Perhaps you would have been happier if there had been a big fight
with lots of recriminations? "

Del replies:
In a way, yes, because that would have been more in character with the
Harry and Ginny I know, with their strong and fiery personalities.
When I imagine Harry and Ginny together, I do *not* imagine a quiet
and gentle relationship. I don't necessarily imagine an endless string
of fights either, mind you. But I do imagine a lot of discussions and
*compromises*. And that doesn't fit with the break-up scene.

Add-on during the re-reading before posting: Actually, now that I
think of it, the whole scene *is* starting to make sense... After all,
the text does specify that *this time* Harry and Ginny understood each
other, and that *this time* Ginny was not going to argue. I guess
that's what her twisted smile meant: "I'll argue just for the sake of
it, but we both know that I'll give in in the end". 

Lynn wrote: 
"And when my husband told me, after 9/11, that if asked he would be
volunteering to go into a war zone (he's in the military), it never
occurred to me that I or our daughter weren't the most important
things in life to him. "

Del replies:
Your husband didn't tell you that he would divorce you before
leaving... But I get your point.

Lynn wrote:
"Sometimes in life, there are things that are just important to do no
matter who you have to leave behind."

Del replies:
I agree, but I'm not sure we agree on *which* things are so important ;-)

Lynn wrote:
"You see it as hero-worship.  I see it as respecting the integrity and
resolve that Harry has to finish something that needs to be done. 
It's one reason I love my husband.  He's willing to go to war to
obtain peace and I consider that I have a deep and mature love for him
and not just hero-worship.  "

Del replies:
What if you were a soldier too? What if you told him you wanted to go
to war too, and he told you no, he wants to go alone, you stay behind
where it's safe, and in order to make you even safer, he's going to
divorce you before he goes?

See, that's the difference between you and Ginny: Ginny is a soldier
too. She's not going to stay safe at home, she's going to fight and
take risks. So Harry breaking up with her supposedly to protect her
strikes me as a noble intention, for sure, but an extremely silly one too.

Lynn wrote:
"Does Harry love Ginny?  Yep.  Does he love her the way a man married
to a woman for 10 years would?  Nope.  They haven't had time to
establish that type of love, friendship yes, romantic love?  No."

Del replies:
That's a revelation! "Romantic love? No." Changes a lot of things...

Lynn wrote:
"Instead, he's worried that she'll be more of a target than she
already is because of their relationship."

Del replies:
Reminds me of his "saving-people-thing" and his "Sirius won't die
because of me"... But hey, that's one reason we like him so much,
right :-) ? Even though he keeps getting it wrong *roll eyes*

Lynn wrote:
"For all your protestations of an unhealthy relationship, I find the
all-consuming relationship you appear to be looking for to be what I
would think is unhealthy.  What I've seen is a friendship that's grown
into something more.  Is it a mature relationship?  Of course not. 
First, they are 16 and 15 years old with all the growth that still
needs to happen and second they haven't been together long enough to
have established the type of relationship you appear to be looking for
to "show" that they are this couple.  "

Del replies:
Hum, *I* was not looking for a mature relationship: I have been *told*
that it is there. JKR wrote in the book that Ginny makes Harry happier
than he'd been in months or years, that Ginny is his best source of
comfort, and she's said in an interview that Ginny is the perfect
match for Harry. And many readers have written that Harry and Ginny
indeed do have a mature relationship. It's precisely the fact that I
don't see that and I don't think it's there, that frustrates me.

So if you now tell me that I can safely go back to my initial
impression that this romance was a nice little add-on on Harry's life,
but nothing critical or life-changing, it will greatly simplify my
problems :-)

Lynn wrote:
"I am also one that has the opinion that Ginny isn't going to let
Harry go quietly.  Her not causing this great big scene at the funeral
speaks more of her understanding the type of person Harry is and
giving him the time he needs before further advancing her arguments
than of her quietly acquiescing.  "

Del replies:
I also get a feeling that she's going to rally some allies to her
side. People like Tonks, for example, who I doubt will be very happy
with Harry's sacrificial attitude :-p Maybe also Bill or Lupin, and
who knows, maybe even Molly?

Lynn wrote: 
"The biggest problem I see with this book is that it is part one of
two and many of the issues brought up here may very well be addressed
in the second part."

Del replies:
Agreed.

Conclusion:

I had the wrong impression that those who were happy with the H/G
romance all felt that it was obvious that it was such a deep,
meaningful, mature relationship. I realise in hindsight that some of
them might not have meant that at all, but it is very much what came
accross.

I also had the impression that JKR had meant the romance to be
something deep and serious (well, fun but serious, see what I mean?).
You tell me that you don't read it that way at all, and that helps.

So now I feel very much liberated. I feel that it's OK for me to not
overly care for that romance, or to not consider that Ginny has
suddenly taken that *huge* place in Harry's life. I'm not worried
anymore about missing something important in Harry's life, and it
makes sense now that so little of his romance should be shown: it's
because it doesn't matter that much.

Thanks a lot :-) I hope you feel it was worth the effort.

Del