SHIP: Remus/Tonks

[guzuguzu]

No: HPFGUIDX 136369

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, Lissa Hess <drliss at c...> wrote:
> 
Lissa: 
 
> Like Del, I've done the begging thing.  More than once.  And 
y'know  what?  It didn't work.  At all.  In fact, quite the 
opposite.  Any respect the guy might have had for me went right out 
the window.  And that's what makes me cringe about the Remus/Tonks 
relationship.  Now, granted, I'm not trying to get a werewolf to go 
out with me.  

guz: 

I had a slightly different interpretation of what was going on in 
the hospital scene between Lupin and Tonks. I don't believe they 
were talking about dating. I believe that they already had had a 
relationship of sorts, and what they were talking about was taking 
it to the next level: either a more serious relationship, or even 
marriage. Tonks aleady knows Lupin care for her-- the "begging" is 
not "please love me".

Lissa: 

>But I can't make that hospital scene resonate with my real life 
experiences, especially since we have NO hints about Remus's 
feelings.

guz: 

Up until that point, we don't, that's true. However, up until that 
point, "What's up with Tonks" is a mystery subplot/ red herring. It 
is also serving the narrative purpose to drive home the point 
(emphasized by Harry's problems with Occlumency) that emotional 
states can greatly affect one's ability to do magic.  
 
> There's no foreshadowing in OotP, and there are places for it.  

<examples snipped>

guz: 

This is completely true, and it would have been nice had there been. 
However, I think OotP was overly long as it was, without adding 
another subplot about second-level characters. 

Lissa: 

> They treat each other as colleagues and I'd certainly believe 
friends, but not anything special.  

guz: 

Yes, in OotP. That changed for me when Hermione explained that Lupin 
had tried to help Tonks confront her survivor's guilt. I also 
believe that this is when the Lupin/Tonks "relationship" started-- 
relationship meaning either a physical one of sorts, or just 
expressing their mutual feelings for each other. And very soon after 
that, Lupin backed away. Because when Harry arrives at the Burrow, 
Tonks is already depressed and already talking to Molly about it 
(though we don't know what "it" is at the time), and I really can't 
believe she is this upset because Lupin simply turned her down for a 
date!


Lissa: 

The only real clue in my mind is he's not married and legal, and 
> so's she.  And when JKR spoke about it in the interview, she 
seemed to be expecting it to be a surprise.

guz: 

Yes, it was obviously supposed to be a "mystery" subplot. However, 
there were a few clues: 

1. Molly inviting Tonks to dinner, and her refusing after Molly says 
Lupin will be coming. Tonks also refuses the invitation to Christmas 
dinner, to be alone instead. 

2. Tonks' patronus changing into something Harry thinks resembles a 
dog. 

3. The biggest hint of all, when Molly gives Lupin "an annoyed look" 
when they are discussing the fact that Tonks refused to come to 
Christmas dinner. That Harry thinks this has anything to do with 
Fleur is a deliberate mislead.

Lissa: 

> There isn't much hint of Remus's feelings towards Tonks in HBP, 
either, which is why I can't reconcile her begging with his 
response.  Sure, there's him staring into the fire at Christmas.  
But Remus has incredibly valid reasons to be depressed at that 
point: 

<reasons snipped>

guz: 

Yes, yes, and yes-- I agree with all of these. However, right after 
it says that Lupin is staring into the fire, we get the lyrics to 
Celestina's love song. That's not an accident. 

Lissa: 

Is it any wonder the 
> poor guy is depressed?  And when Tonks does come up, Molly 
corrects Remus as to her whereabouts.  If Remus had corrected Molly, 
I'd've been much more suspicious.

guz: 

And here's where our interpretations differ. For me, this was the 
explanation of what was going on. And also it implies that Remus 
knows that Molly knows what is going on, too. 

Lissa: 

> But the lack of any feeling or any hint from Remus about Tonks is 
what  makes my reaction go from the grin I got from Fleur's reaction 
to Bill to cringing and recommending Tonks read "He's Just Not That 
Into You."  I know Remus is a private person, and yes, the books are 
from Harry's POV, but if the author wants me to believe that Remus 
loves Tonks, I need to be shown, not told.  

guz: 

I think the fact that Lupin and Tonks have discussed it "a million 
times" and that both Molly and Arthur know what's going on, is a 
pretty strong indicator that they are talking about much more than 
dating. People generally do not discuss "a million times" and get 
advice from a married couple on whether or not they should date. And 
Lupin's reasons, "too old, too poor, too dangerous," are more 
reasons why they shouldn't get married, then as to why they 
shouldn't have a fling. And, in my opinion, if we interpret this 
hospital scene as "Tonks has been asking Remus out on a date for a 
YEAR, but she's not his type, and he's too nice/wimpy to tell her 
that straight out," then that really does make Tonks, Lupin, and 
Molly all look incredibly pathetic. 


Lissa: 

There are ways to do it, and it doesn't have to be big.  Heck, 
all it took me to buy Fleur and Bill was an interested look from her 
and a typical little brother wisecrack from the twins.

guz: 

I do understand this feeling. But, if you consider (1) that the 
Tonks subplot was intentionally designed to be a mystery/red 
herring, and (2) that it's possible that we are supposed to 
interpret the Lupin/Tonks relationship discussion to be on the topic 
of marriage as opposed to dating, then would that help sell the 
relationship to you?

guz