SHIP: Remus/Tonks

[drliss at comcast.net]

No: HPFGUIDX 136391

Guz:

I do understand this feeling. But, if you consider (1) that the 
Tonks subplot was intentionally designed to be a mystery/red 
herring, and (2) that it's possible that we are supposed to 
interpret the Lupin/Tonks relationship discussion to be on the topic 
of marriage as opposed to dating, then would that help sell the 
relationship to you?

Lissa:

Nope.  Not at all.  Sorry :)

The red-herring thing from Tonks's perspective I'm... well, okay with.  I can see where her feelings were hinted at, and although I don't like it, I can accept that.  What bothers me there is the throwback to the 1950s (her Patronus changing for him really sticks in my craw unless we find out 1.) his changed for her as well, or 2.) he saved her life or the change in Patronus relates to something in addition to simple love.).  I'm sorry, but the Tonks we met- and that I really liked- in OotP didn't come across as someone who would pine for a man for almost a year.  And the fact it sapped her powers (as hinted at by the unrequited love sapping Merope of hers) REALLY bothers me.  All I'm saying is that James Potter better have struggled for a bit there when Lily wouldn't give him the time of day, y'know?  It also bothers me because honestly?  I didn't really pick up on the fact I was supposed to be fooled by thinking Tonks was Draco's accomplice.  I thought something might be going on, but Tonks was on the page so rarely that it didn't really work on me as a red herring- too much else was happening with more major characters.

Now, I admit, as much as I vastly prefer Remus with Sirius (where I DID see a lot of canonical hints and a deep friendship that could be more), I pretty much expected that Remus and Tonks might get together if Remus was going to be paired off with anyone.  If you want to put him into a relationship with an active character and you don't want a student, someone twice his age, someone married, or a man, you only have one option.  And if we'd seen little hints of a developing relationship and the handholding at the end without the hospital scene- THAT I would have bought.  It's the hospital scene that throws the entire thing out of whack.

I cannot believe from canon that they were to the point they were discussing marriage.  As I said, there is absolutely nothing to indicate in OotP that they were more than friends- in fact, quite the reverse with the DoM battle and Lupin's reaction.  And while OotP might have been overly long, one single sentence about how Lupin was kneeling by her side or started towards her or at least flicked his eyes to check if she was okay would not have added considerably to the length. (Neither would have switching the joint Christmas present from Remus and Sirius to Remus and Tonks.)  And given how torn up he was about Sirius, the fact that he checked on her through his pain would have at least given some idea of his feelings.  And sure, he may have gone over after Harry left, but if as readers we're being asked to believe he's in love with her at that point, we needed to see that concern.  But because of his utter lack of reaction in the Ministry, I simply cannot believe he cared about her as anything more than a friend until the HBP timeframe.

Then in HBP, he tells Harry he's been living underground with the werewolves.  There's simply no time for him to be forming any sort of relationship where they're already at the marriage stage.  Well, no.  I do take that back.  We don't know what he does after Christmas, and given that both my own grandparents and my husband's parents got married after 3-6 months of dating, perhaps there's time by other people's standards after Christmas, if he does not go back to the werewolves.  (Course, it took me and hubby three years, so again, that Real Life experience ;) )  But although they've had this conversation "a million times", that's a.) obviously an exaggeration, and b.) the subject of the conversation- marriage vs. possible involvement- is not clear.  Because of the timing, I would veer more towards possible involvement.

As far as Lupin talking her down from survivor's guilt: given what we see of Lupin in OotP, both comforting Molly after she sees her boggart and talking to Molly on Christmas when Percy returns his jumper, this does not stick out at all to me.   Lupin is a shoulder to cry on- it's a huge part of his character.

guz:
Yes, yes, and yes-- I agree with all of these. However, right after 
it says that Lupin is staring into the fire, we get the lyrics to 
Celestina's love song. That's not an accident. 


Lissa:

Or those same lyrics can be interpretted as Remus's feelings for Sirius ;)  But seriously, Remus doesn't mope during that song.  Rather, that's when he snaps out of it and talks to Harry.  I need conformation from Remus himself, not from the circumstances.  I need proof of interest from Remus.  Like I said- it doesn't have to be much.  Him correcting Molly instead of the other way around (or even looking guilty or flushed or something) would have helped out.  But given the fact that Molly had to correct him on Tonks's whereabouts said to me that Remus didn't really care- he was too wrapped up in his own problems.
It does certainly seem that Molly and Arthur (and McGonagall) have known about this.  But here's the other thing that really, really, REALLY bugs me about the hospital scene and just makes me not like how the ship was handled in general:

Remus has just lost Dumbledore.  Even Harry notes that this is the strongest reaction he's ever scene from Remus, and he's distinctly uncomfortable, because he acknowledges that Remus is such a private person.  And yes, I do believe Dumbledore's death hit Remus incredibly hard.  Whereas when Remus lost Sirius, he was in battle and losing one person, with Dumbledore, he was losing his link to the world.  Without Dumbledore, Remus does not have a champion that has power, and given all that Dumbledore has done for Remus....  His grief is completely understandable, and very raw in that scene.  Additionally, Remus IS a very private person.  To force a conversation about his love life in front of everyone- and then to have everyone say that he's wrong, that he shouldn't feel the way he does, that his reasons aren't valid (more on that in a second), and that he should capitulate and emotionally blackmailing him that Dumbledore would have liked it (I can see where it was probably meant as reassurance, but hey- I admittedly HATE this scene)- all that had to have been intensely humiliating for him.  And he was right.  It was not the moment for that discussion.  I can't help but wonder why, if Tonks loves him like she says she does, she put him through that.  

And he does have valid reasons for not being willing to start a relationship.  The too old thing isn't really one of them- for all that Remus is older, he's not as mature as fandom would like to think.  (Really, cross-dressing Snape?  The man's inner 12 year old is very much alive, thanks.)  The too poor thing I'm in the air about.  It shouldn't matter.   It speaks well of Tonks that it doesn't matter to her.  But it DOES matter to Remus, and if that's something -he- can't get over, I can understand that.  And the too dangerous thing?  That one he's completely 100% right.  Aside from the werewolf thing, Remus is a dead man walking at the end of HBP.  Between his fighting at the Tower and Snape's defection, the Death Eaters must know that Remus isn't on their side and has been among the werewolves as a spy.  And look at Greyback's methods; he doesn't go after the person who offended him, but the people that person loves.  Remus is truly dangerous at this point, and while Tonks can probably take care of herself, he's got a point.  

Now add to this Remus's greatest flaw: he likes to be liked.  This is another thing I just can't reconcile so easily.  Remus DOES like to be liked, and he's sold out before to get it.  So why why WHY does it take him almost a year to give into Tonks if he's interested?  Why does he fight it so hard?  Possibly because of the above reasons- like I said, they're extremely valid.  Perhaps he wants to protect Tonks.  But if he loved her, it would make sense he'd give in much sooner than this.  (And maybe he did on some level.  My personal theory- which I know JKR's not doing but I like it much better- is that he slept with her not long after Sirius died and then backed away, and it kind of messed with her head.)  But there's a line that also really stands out to me, and that's when Remus says he must be grateful.  He's talking about Snape making the potion, but I kind of think, given the treatment he endures, Remus must be grateful for anything he recieves.  It really kind of makes this relationship very hollow for me- and again, because Tonks begged.  She loves him this much, she's willing to sacrifice... and he must be grateful for that.  (Especially with everyone telling him that.)  It just doesn't all add up to me, and I can't make myself believe that he's madly in love with her.

Of course, that doesn't mean I don't accept the relationship as canon.  I do.  I don't think Tonks is Sirius in disguise, I don't think he told her about his secret relationship with Sirius and that made her feel better and they were holding hands at the funeral for comfort.... I do believe we are meant to take this relationship at face value.  Anything else is too complicated for a subplot.  I just think it was badly handled and written.  It's a small part of HBP and an even smaller part of the Harry Potter plot in general, so it's not like I'm saying that JKR is an evil demon from the pits of Hell or that I don't enjoy the books or anything.  I don't even necessarily think her publishers had much to do with it.  I suspect that, like the Harry/Hermione shippers, the Remus/Sirius crew saw signs of a deep friendship that COULD be love if authorial intent wasn't involved, and it wasn't necessarily something JKR intended.  I also think that, because it IS such a small part of the books, JKR is not that great at writing serious romance.  I mean, think about it.  Even a lot of Harry/Ginny shippers aren't overly happy at the very glossed-over way the ship was treated.  Molly and Arthur obviously love each other, but the tender, mature side of their love directed at each other is rarely shown- instead, we see the sides that play for laughs (like Mollywobbles ;) ).  Bill and Fleur... did Bill himself even speak in this book?  The focus on the relationship was the friction between Fleur and Molly; the love between Bill and Fleur was the motivator for that friction.  She does the humor, the set up, and the teenaged failures extremely well, but actual serious love leaves a lot to be desired in JKR's world and writing.  Which is fine... that's why we write fanfic.  And that's why I would have preferred- and bought- the more subtle approach to Remus/Tonks rather than the disaster of the hospital scene we were given.  The melodrama was what put it over the top and made it completely unbelievable to me.

Anyway, to be honest, nothing will ever get me to like how this was handled at all.  I might like the ship better in Book 7, when we're over the melodrama and on to the meat of the matter, but even then, the hospital scene will always ring to me as one of JKR's seriously off days.  But when I get to take back everything I ever said about Voldemort being a 2-D, Evil Overlord stock villian, it's a small price to pay!

Lissa

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