SHIP: Remus/Tonks and real life experiences

[kiricat4001]

No: HPFGUIDX 136476

<snip>
> Lissa: 
> 
> I'm sorry, but the Tonks we met- and that I really liked- in OotP 
> didn't come across as someone who would pine for a man for almost 
a year.  
> 
> guz: 
> 
> I agree that she is not the same person she was in OotP. The 
events 
> at the end of that book hit her very, very hard.

Marianne:

How do we know this?  Tonks appears to be her normal self at the end 
of OoP when the group meets Harry at the train station, complete 
with pink hair and a feisty addition to the warnings Moody etal. 
give the Dursleys about not giving Harry a bad time.  Not that I'm 
saying that Tonks is not saddened by Sirius' death, but her 
appearance/attitude at King's Cross is completely in line with what 
we've seen of her throughout OoP. I'm not suggesting that she wasn't 
upset over Sirius' death, but she seemed completely Tonks-like at 
the station. (We have to assume she mourned Sirius, because, like so 
many of these secondary stories, we are told about it but do not 
witness the characters' actual behavior or hear their words.)

Actually, I found part of the red herring bit about Tonks a little 
cheap, in the sense that part of the misdirection JKR threw at us 
about her depression/attitude change was toted up to Sirius' death, 
to the point where Harry wonders if she was in love with his 
godfather.  But, no, most of this seemingly was Remus-angst.  It 
bothered me that Harry seems to be the only person who has truly 
mourned Sirius.  And I find that sad.

<more major snippage of stuff I generally agree with>
 
> guz: 
> 
> Besides the fact that Molly talks about people eloping (and the 
fact 
> that she and Arthur eleoped), the other reason I'm suggesting 
> they're talking about marriage and not just "a serious 
relationship" 
> is that they *are* books aimed at children. I'm not making a moral 
> judgement (I've been with my partner 7 years, and we're not 
> married!), but I try to keep my opinions in the range of the 
> probable as far as the published books go. This is another reason 
> why I never considered Lupin and Sirius a possible couple. Was 
never 
> going to happen. Like you said, that's what fanfic is for! 

Marianne: 
I think the "they're children's books" is a non-starter.  JKR has 
said more than once that she's writing for herself, and not gearing 
her story to please any particular segment of the book-buying 
public. And it's always struck me as odd that the books can include 
things like multiple murders, some of which happen on-screen, grave-
robbing, self-mutilation, lying, cheating, rule-breaking, violence, 
stories of government corruption, but, that they would stop short of 
even a hint of homosexuality, because that's just way too 
controvesial.  You may be perfectly right about that, guz, but, if 
JKR is shying away from this because of controversy, then that's 
really unfortunate.    

> Lissa: 
> 
> > As far as Lupin talking her down from survivor's guilt: given 
what 
> we see of Lupin in OotP, both comforting Molly after she sees her 
> boggart and talking to Molly on Christmas when Percy returns his 
> jumper, this does not stick out at all to me.   Lupin is a 
shoulder 
> to cry on- it's a huge part of his character.
> 
> I agree. It's not out of character. But I do believe that Tonks 
and 
> Lupin seriously bonded over their mutual grief and survivor's 
guilt. 

Marianne:
Could be.  I'd buy that.  Too bad we didn't see a hint of it, though.
 
> > guz:
> > Yes, yes, and yes-- I agree with all of these. However, right 
> after 
> > it says that Lupin is staring into the fire, we get the lyrics 
to 
> > Celestina's love song. That's not an accident. 
> > 
> > 
> > Lissa:
> > 
> > Or those same lyrics can be interpretted as Remus's feelings for 
> Sirius ;)  But seriously, Remus doesn't mope during that song.  
> Rather, that's when he snaps out of it and talks to Harry.  
> 
> guz: 
> 
> Actually, I just double-checked the text, and he snaps out of it 
> about a page later-- when Harry is in much deeper conversation 
with 
> Arthur. But, whatever-- it is a very subtle clue. 

Marianne:

This speaks to how people interpret what they've read.  If you are 
one who has seen Remus/Sirius subtext in previous books, you'll read 
this scene entirely differently than if you don't buy that subtext.  
And, after the hospital scene, I have to believe that JKR intended 
this as Remus thinking about Tonks. But, again, since she apparently 
wanted to play this as a surprise twist in hooking up R/T, it didn't 
really work for me.  

> Lissa: 
> 
> I need conformation from Remus himself, not from the 
circumstances.  
> I need proof of interest from Remus.  Like I said- it doesn't have 
> to be much.  
> 
> guz: 
> 
> The proof, for me, is that he has been talking about this "a 
million 
> times". Really. If it was really that he "just wasn't interested," 
> it would not have gone that far.

Marianne:
I think he's simply not going to argue the "million times" with 
Tonks.  I think Lissa's point about is well taken. With whatever 
Remus has been doing with the werewolves, it doesn't seem that there 
has been a lot of time for him to spend with Tonks.  I read 
this "million times" thing as a subtle hint of her immaturity 
compared to his.  I'm not saying that she's acting like a kid or 
that she is not an accomplished witch in her own right for her age 
and what she has been doing.  But I can't see that they've spent all 
this time together.  I see her falling into hyperbole because she's 
been beating her hands bloody on this particular door, and he keeps 
not giving her the answer she wants.

<snip>
> Lissa: 
> 
> > It does certainly seem that Molly and Arthur (and McGonagall) 
have 
> known about this.  But here's the other thing that really, really, 
> REALLY bugs me about the hospital scene and just makes me not like 
> how the ship was handled in general:
> Remus has just lost Dumbledore.  Even Harry notes that this is the 
> strongest reaction he's ever scene from Remus, and he's distinctly 
> uncomfortable, because he acknowledges that Remus is such a 
private 
> person.  And yes, I do believe Dumbledore's death hit Remus 
> incredibly hard.  Whereas when Remus lost Sirius, he was in battle 
> and losing one person, with Dumbledore, he was losing his link to 
> the world.  Without Dumbledore, Remus does not have a champion 
that 
> has power, and given all that Dumbledore has done for Remus....  
His 
> grief is completely understandable, and very raw in that scene.  
> Additionally, Remus IS a very private person.  To force a 
> conversation about his love life in front of everyone- and then to 
> have everyone say that he's wrong, that he shouldn't feel the way 
he 
> does, that his reasons aren't valid (more on that in a second), 
and 
> that he should capitulate and emotionally blackmailing him that 
> Dumbledore would have liked it (I can see where it was probably 
> meant as reassurance, but hey- I admittedly HATE this scene)- all 
> that had to have been intensely humiliating for him.  And he was 
> right.  It was not the moment for that discussion.  I can't help 
but 
> wonder why, if Tonks loves him like she says she does, she put him 
> through that.  

Marianne: Amen to all that!
 
> guz:
> 
> I agree with you-- Lupin is devestated by the loss of Dumbledore. 
I 
> also think he is ready to rip his heart out over the fact that 
Snape 
> betrayed the Order (as far as they know), especially after the 
> speech he gave to Harry about Snape at Christmastime. He *is* 
> extremely embarrassed by Tonks' outburst (he's extremely flustered 
> and he can't even look anyone in the eyes) and it truly wasn't an 
> appopriate time or place for Tonks to bring it up. 

Marianne:
Which again spoke to a certain level of immaturity on Tonks' part to 
me. Which, in this case is actually a good thing, because I do think 
she was speaking from her heart.  If she had staged that outburst in 
an effort to force Remus to face the situation, I'd really hate her.

guz:
> However, I forgive Tonks for that, because she has been completely 
> emotionally overwhelmed. You think Remus is having a tough year? 
> Tonks, after being a bubbly fresh-faced, brand new auror and Order 
> member in OotP, has been in a horrific battle with her aunt and 
> uncles (Bellatrix, the Lestrange brothers and Lucius, 
respectively), 
> was severely wounded, had her cousin (the one member from that 
side 
> of the family who isn't trying to kill her) die, is having very 
> visible problems with her magic ability (how does she explain that 
> to her boss, I wonder?), is trying to keep up with the secret 
duties 
> of the Order and her job as an auror, when people are dying or 
> disappearing left, right, and center. All those people dying and 
> disappearing: it is her offical job as an auror to be preventing 
> this. And the aurors are losing that battle badly. And the people 
> doing the killing: among them are her aunts, uncles and cousins. 
She 
> has detached herself (I noticed that she called Draco "the Malfoy 
> boy"-- he's her first cousin, she must know his name), but it 
still 
> must be traumatic. And on top of all of this, she's having man 
> issues! Yeesh!

Marianne:
Sure, she's having a tough year, but I don't know that we can boil 
this down to who's having a harder time.  She's battling her family, 
but are they that important to her?  Has she had interactions with 
them, or has she been pretty much separated from them all her life 
because her mother had the temerity to marry the wrong kind of man?  
I'm not convinced Tonks is suffering from family angst with regards 
to the actions of the creepy side of the Black family.

Tonks at least has a place in Wizard society.  It's Remus' second go-
round fighting evil, and he can be pretty sure that no matter what 
he does, however bravely he fights or however much effort, strength 
and blood he sheds in this battle, no one will thank him for it or 
even stop to consider that maybe werewolves are part of humanity.

> Lissa: 
> 
> > Now add to this Remus's greatest flaw: he likes to be liked.  
This 
> is another thing I just can't reconcile so easily.  Remus DOES 
like 
> to be liked, and he's sold out before to get it.  So why why WHY 
> does it take him almost a year to give into Tonks if he's 
> interested?  Why does he fight it so hard?  Possibly because of 
the 
> above reasons- like I said, they're extremely valid.  Perhaps he 
> wants to protect Tonks.  But if he loved her, it would make sense 
> he'd give in much sooner than this.  
> 
> guz: 
> 
> Nah, he's been giving Tonks Harry's "I'm a loner Dottie, a 
rebel..." 
> speech. I don't think Lupin has any problems with being liked, 
it's 
> being loved that's freaking him out. And I honestly think that 
until 
> Tonks, Lupin had never considered that he could have a 
relationship 
> with a "normal person" -- his words.

Marianne:
Again, I'm not sure here.  Remus thought he'd never have friends, 
and he found three people who accepted him and undertook dangerous 
magic to try to help him. Granted, there was probably an element of 
danger and rebelliousness and "aren't we so clever to have figured 
out this Animagus thing?" going on, but Remus knows that people have 
accepted him before.  

On the other hand, Remus has also lost these three friends, so he 
may very well be extremely hesitant to allow anyone else to get that 
close to him again.


> Lissa: 
> 
> It really kind of makes this relationship very hollow for me- and 
> again, because Tonks begged.  
> 
> guz: 
> 
> She is begging him to stop being ridiculous and accept what he 
> already knows to be true.  

Marianne:
She is pleading, but, I'm still left with the picture in my head of 
Remus at his wits' end on how to make it clear to her that this is 
not really what he wants.
 
> Lissa: 
> 
> She loves him this much, she's willing to sacrifice... and he must 
> be grateful for that.  (Especially with everyone telling him 
that.)  
> 
> guz: 
> 
> Everyone doesn't tell him that-- he says that himself-- that he 
must 
> be grateful for any crumb someone throws him. Harry argues with 
him 
> about that exact point.

Marianne: Yes, everyone in the hospital wing is not telling him to 
be grateful, but they are certainly telling him to give it up and, 
as Molly says, stop being ridiculous. So, he does have a roomful of 
people who are essentially telling him that he's wrong.

And, just as an aside, I'm sure I'm just getting way too cynical in 
my old age, but when McGonagall uttered that line about Dumbledore 
would have been happy to know that there was a little more love in 
the world, I absolutely cringed.  I mean, it's a nice sentiment, but 
somehow the delivery made me think "Is the guy from Hallmark in the 
room taking notes?"

Marianne