SHIP: Remus/Tonks and real life experiences

[guzuguzu]

No: HPFGUIDX 136444

guz: 

Wow, Lissa-- this is a great post. I'm going to try to cut it a bit 
for length in my response without losing content. 
 
> Lissa:
> > 
What bothers me there is the throwback to the 1950s (her Patronus 
changing for him really sticks in my craw unless we find out 1.) his 
changed for her as well, or 2.) he saved her life or the change in 
Patronus relates to something in addition to simple love.).  

guz: 

I admit, I too find this a bit awkward. However, I rationalize it to 
myself by saying that it is serving several narrative purposes 
(showing that emotions affect magic ability, a clue to the mystery, 
and the opportunity for that wonderful little scene with her and 
Snape-- man, I think that comment about her patronus was one of the 
nastiest things we've heard him say-- and she's one of his former 
NEWT Potions students!)

Lissa: 

I'm sorry, but the Tonks we met- and that I really liked- in OotP 
didn't come across as someone who would pine for a man for almost a 
year.  

guz: 

I agree that she is not the same person she was in OotP. The events 
at the end of that book hit her very, very hard.

Lissa: 

And the fact it sapped her powers (as hinted at by the unrequited 
love sapping Merope of hers) REALLY bothers me.  

guz: 

It does me, too. And, regardless of Harry's little revelation in the 
hospital wing, I don't think that all of Tonks' behavior is supposed 
to be explained by the Lupin thing. She is having a very, very bad 
year. I'll detail that a few paragraphs down.

Lissa: 

It also bothers me because honestly?  I didn't really pick up on the 
fact I was supposed to be fooled by thinking Tonks was Draco's 
accomplice.  I thought something might be going on, but Tonks was on 
the page so rarely that it didn't really work on me as a red herring-
 too much else was happening with more major characters.

guz: 

Yeah, to tell the truth, I don't know what we were supposed to be 
supposing about Tonks. She's as much as a red herring as Bagman was 
in GoF (i.e. not very much of one). There are some flaws with the 
plot structure and pacing in HBP, (did we really need to hear about 
Slughorn's stupid pineapple candy 27 times?) but we have what we 
have.

Lissa: 
 
> Now, I admit, as much as I vastly prefer Remus with Sirius (where 
I DID see a lot of canonical hints and a deep friendship that could 
be more) 

guz: 

I'm just going to say that I'm going to leave this issue aside. It's 
my opinion that the author did not intend the readers to think that 
Lupin and Sirius were anything more than friends, and even if, for 
some reason, she did: he's dead, Jim. 

Lissa: 
 
> I cannot believe from canon that they were to the point they were 
discussing marriage.  

guz: 

Bear in mind, Molly says many people are eloping and doing rash 
things because they are not sure they'll be alive much longer. It's 
a scary time for everyone.

Lissa: 

As I said, there is absolutely nothing to indicate in OotP that they 
were more than friends- in fact, quite the reverse with the DoM 
battle and Lupin's reaction.  And while OotP might have been overly 
long, one single sentence about how Lupin was kneeling by her side 
or started towards her or at least flicked his eyes to check if she 
was okay would not have added considerably to the length. (Neither 
would have switching the joint Christmas present from Remus and 
Sirius to Remus and Tonks.)  

guz: 

I agree with you-- I don't think there is any indication that they 
are more than friends in OotP. They are simply friends and fellow 
soldiers. There was definitely nothing going on with them at 
Christmastime, and I do believe that Lupin's attention at the final 
battle was 100% on Harry and Sirius. 

However, there's also no indication that Lavender and Ron ever even 
said "hello" to each other before HBP. Not that I'm comparing Won-
Won to Lupin, I'm just saying that not all attractions start slowly 
and subtly. Sometimes they creep up on you. Sometimes they hit you 
like a ton of bricks.

Lissa: <stuff snipped>

I simply cannot believe he cared about her as anything more than a 
friend until the HBP timeframe.

guz: 

I agree with you, and I don't think the author intended us to think 
that. *Possibly* something has happened between them in the time 
between the final battle, and when they see Harry off at the 
station, but there is no real indication of that. 
 
Lissa: 

> Then in HBP, he tells Harry he's been living underground with the 
werewolves.  There's simply no time for him to be forming any sort 
of relationship where they're already at the marriage stage.  Well, 
no.  I do take that back.  We don't know what he does after 
Christmas, and given that both my own grandparents and my husband's 
parents got married after 3-6 months of dating, perhaps there's time 
by other people's standards after Christmas, if he does not go back 
to the werewolves.  (Course, it took me and hubby three years, so 
again, that Real Life experience ;) )  But although they've had this 
conversation "a million times", that's a.) obviously an 
exaggeration, and b.) the subject of the conversation- marriage vs. 
possible involvement- is not clear.  Because of the timing, I would 
veer more towards possible involvement.

guz: 

Besides the fact that Molly talks about people eloping (and the fact 
that she and Arthur eleoped), the other reason I'm suggesting 
they're talking about marriage and not just "a serious relationship" 
is that they *are* books aimed at children. I'm not making a moral 
judgement (I've been with my partner 7 years, and we're not 
married!), but I try to keep my opinions in the range of the 
probable as far as the published books go. This is another reason 
why I never considered Lupin and Sirius a possible couple. Was never 
going to happen. Like you said, that's what fanfic is for! 

Lissa: 

> As far as Lupin talking her down from survivor's guilt: given what 
we see of Lupin in OotP, both comforting Molly after she sees her 
boggart and talking to Molly on Christmas when Percy returns his 
jumper, this does not stick out at all to me.   Lupin is a shoulder 
to cry on- it's a huge part of his character.

I agree. It's not out of character. But I do believe that Tonks and 
Lupin seriously bonded over their mutual grief and survivor's guilt. 

> guz:
> Yes, yes, and yes-- I agree with all of these. However, right 
after 
> it says that Lupin is staring into the fire, we get the lyrics to 
> Celestina's love song. That's not an accident. 
> 
> 
> Lissa:
> 
> Or those same lyrics can be interpretted as Remus's feelings for 
Sirius ;)  But seriously, Remus doesn't mope during that song.  
Rather, that's when he snaps out of it and talks to Harry.  

guz: 

Actually, I just double-checked the text, and he snaps out of it 
about a page later-- when Harry is in much deeper conversation with 
Arthur. But, whatever-- it is a very subtle clue. 

Lissa: 

I need conformation from Remus himself, not from the circumstances.  
I need proof of interest from Remus.  Like I said- it doesn't have 
to be much.  

guz: 

The proof, for me, is that he has been talking about this "a million 
times". Really. If it was really that he "just wasn't interested," 
it would not have gone that far.

Lissa: 

Him correcting Molly instead of the other way around (or even 
looking guilty or flushed or something) would have helped out.  But 
given the fact that Molly had to correct him on Tonks's whereabouts 
said to me that Remus didn't really care- he was too wrapped up in 
his own problems.

guz: 

I think we have different interpretations of this bit. Molly is not-
so-subtly telling him that Tonks is *purposefully avoiding* him. 
Explaining that she is *not* enjoying Christmas with her family. Not 
that I think Lupin is sitting there, thinking about Tonks the whole 
time. I agree with you, he is having a rough time with the 
werewolves.

Lissa: 

> It does certainly seem that Molly and Arthur (and McGonagall) have 
known about this.  But here's the other thing that really, really, 
REALLY bugs me about the hospital scene and just makes me not like 
how the ship was handled in general:

guz: 

Let me just first say up front: the hospital wing scene is my 
favorite scene in the whole book-- and not just because of 
Lupin/Tonks. I love the whole thing! 

Lissa:
 
> Remus has just lost Dumbledore.  Even Harry notes that this is the 
strongest reaction he's ever scene from Remus, and he's distinctly 
uncomfortable, because he acknowledges that Remus is such a private 
person.  And yes, I do believe Dumbledore's death hit Remus 
incredibly hard.  Whereas when Remus lost Sirius, he was in battle 
and losing one person, with Dumbledore, he was losing his link to 
the world.  Without Dumbledore, Remus does not have a champion that 
has power, and given all that Dumbledore has done for Remus....  His 
grief is completely understandable, and very raw in that scene.  
Additionally, Remus IS a very private person.  To force a 
conversation about his love life in front of everyone- and then to 
have everyone say that he's wrong, that he shouldn't feel the way he 
does, that his reasons aren't valid (more on that in a second), and 
that he should capitulate and emotionally blackmailing him that 
Dumbledore would have liked it (I can see where it was probably 
meant as reassurance, but hey- I admittedly HATE this scene)- all 
that had to have been intensely humiliating for him.  And he was 
right.  It was not the moment for that discussion.  I can't help but 
wonder why, if Tonks loves him like she says she does, she put him 
through that.  

guz:

I agree with you-- Lupin is devestated by the loss of Dumbledore. I 
also think he is ready to rip his heart out over the fact that Snape 
betrayed the Order (as far as they know), especially after the 
speech he gave to Harry about Snape at Christmastime. He *is* 
extremely embarrassed by Tonks' outburst (he's extremely flustered 
and he can't even look anyone in the eyes) and it truly wasn't an 
appopriate time or place for Tonks to bring it up. 

However, I forgive Tonks for that, because she has been completely 
emotionally overwhelmed. You think Remus is having a tough year? 
Tonks, after being a bubbly fresh-faced, brand new auror and Order 
member in OotP, has been in a horrific battle with her aunt and 
uncles (Bellatrix, the Lestrange brothers and Lucius, respectively), 
was severely wounded, had her cousin (the one member from that side 
of the family who isn't trying to kill her) die, is having very 
visible problems with her magic ability (how does she explain that 
to her boss, I wonder?), is trying to keep up with the secret duties 
of the Order and her job as an auror, when people are dying or 
disappearing left, right, and center. All those people dying and 
disappearing: it is her offical job as an auror to be preventing 
this. And the aurors are losing that battle badly. And the people 
doing the killing: among them are her aunts, uncles and cousins. She 
has detached herself (I noticed that she called Draco "the Malfoy 
boy"-- he's her first cousin, she must know his name), but it still 
must be traumatic. And on top of all of this, she's having man 
issues! Yeesh!

I also think that Tonks, like me, was touched by the beautiful scene 
between Molly and Fleur. I really loved that scene. So, I will 
forgive Tonks that emotional outburst. I've had more inappropriate 
emotional outbursts, myself!

Lissa: 

And he does have valid reasons for not being willing to start a 
relationship.  The too old thing isn't really one of them- for all 
that Remus is older, he's not as mature as fandom would like to 
think.  (Really, cross-dressing Snape?  The man's inner 12 year old 
is very much alive, thanks.)  The too poor thing I'm in the air 
about.  It shouldn't matter.   It speaks well of Tonks that it 
doesn't matter to her.  But it DOES matter to Remus, and if that's 
something -he- can't get over, I can understand that.  

guz: 

Yeah, Remus definitely has an issue with money and pride. Are we 
supposed to believe that no one has thought to buy him a set of new 
robes for his birthday or Christmas? And that Sirius didn't leave 
him *anything* in his will for no good reason? Remus *does* need to 
get over this.

Lissa: 

And the too dangerous thing?  That one he's completely 100% right.  
Aside from the werewolf thing, Remus is a dead man walking at the 
end of HBP.  Between his fighting at the Tower and Snape's 
defection, the Death Eaters must know that Remus isn't on their side 
and has been among the werewolves as a spy.  And look at Greyback's 
methods; he doesn't go after the person who offended him, but the 
people that person loves.  Remus is truly dangerous at this point, 
and while Tonks can probably take care of herself, he's got a 
point.  

guz: 

Well, the entire wizarding population has been dead men/women 
walking for all of HBP. Remember Molly's clock? Everyone is in 
mortal peril. Tonks, as an auror AND Order member, is probably more 
capable than most people in defending herself. In fact, she, as an 
auror, is probably a huge target-- more so than Lupin.

Lissa: 

> Now add to this Remus's greatest flaw: he likes to be liked.  This 
is another thing I just can't reconcile so easily.  Remus DOES like 
to be liked, and he's sold out before to get it.  So why why WHY 
does it take him almost a year to give into Tonks if he's 
interested?  Why does he fight it so hard?  Possibly because of the 
above reasons- like I said, they're extremely valid.  Perhaps he 
wants to protect Tonks.  But if he loved her, it would make sense 
he'd give in much sooner than this.  

guz: 

Nah, he's been giving Tonks Harry's "I'm a loner Dottie, a rebel..." 
speech. I don't think Lupin has any problems with being liked, it's 
being loved that's freaking him out. And I honestly think that until 
Tonks, Lupin had never considered that he could have a relationship 
with a "normal person" -- his words.

Lissa: 

(And maybe he did on some level.  My personal theory- which I know 
JKR's not doing but I like it much better- is that he slept with her 
not long after Sirius died and then backed away, and it kind of 
messed with her head.)  

guz: 

Here's where you and I agree! Or at least they snogged.

Lissa: 

But there's a line that also really stands out to me, and that's 
when Remus says he must be grateful.  He's talking about Snape 
making the potion, but I kind of think, given the treatment he 
endures, Remus must be grateful for anything he recieves.  

guz: 

He's got a big inferiority complex. Look how he calls the werewovles 
who steal and kill his "fellows" and his "equals".

Lissa: 

It really kind of makes this relationship very hollow for me- and 
again, because Tonks begged.  

guz: 

She is begging him to stop being ridiculous and accept what he 
already knows to be true.  

Lissa: 

She loves him this much, she's willing to sacrifice... and he must 
be grateful for that.  (Especially with everyone telling him that.)  

guz: 

Everyone doesn't tell him that-- he says that himself-- that he must 
be grateful for any crumb someone throws him. Harry argues with him 
about that exact point.

Lissa: 

It just doesn't all add up to me, and I can't make myself believe 
that he's madly in love with her.

guz: 

Here's the thing: he's not madly in love with her. I'm not even sure 
he's in love with her at all at that point. I believe he does love 
her, and is attracted to her. Relationships don't always start with 
two people madly in love with each other. Sometimes you have to work 
up to that. Especially since the indication here is that Lupin has 
never been in a serious romantic relationship.

Lissa: 
> 
I also think that, because it IS such a small part of the books, JKR 
is not that great at writing serious romance.  I mean, think about 
it.  Even a lot of Harry/Ginny shippers aren't overly happy at the 
very glossed-over way the ship was treated.  

guz: 

I agree. She's not great at writing serious romance. I have to say, 
though, there are very few authors who are. 

Lissa: Which is fine... that's why we write fanfic.  

guz: 

Agreed!

Lissa: 

And that's why I would have preferred- and bought- the more subtle 
approach to Remus/Tonks rather than the disaster of the hospital 
scene we were given.  The melodrama was what put it over the top and 
made it completely unbelievable to me.

guz: 

And here's where we agree to disagree! Like I said, I love the whole 
hospital scene -- it was probably one of my favorite scenes in the 
entire series. I do love melodrama, though! I admit it!

Thanks for your thoughtful reply to my post!



guz.