SHIP:Remus/Tonks and real life experiences

[Lissa Hess]

No: HPFGUIDX 136494

And thank -you- right back for such a thoughtful response back! :)  I'm not 
going to hit every point, because I think we differ on opinion as opposed 
to facts here.  We both agree that Remus and Tonks are together in the end, 
and they probably weren't together in OotP.  I'm not sure there's much more 
that can factually be argued ;)  But there were a few points I wanted to 
keep discussing.


>guz:
>
>I admit, I too find this a bit awkward. However, I rationalize it to
>myself by saying that it is serving several narrative purposes
>(showing that emotions affect magic ability, a clue to the mystery,
>and the opportunity for that wonderful little scene with her and
>Snape-- man, I think that comment about her patronus was one of the
>nastiest things we've heard him say-- and she's one of his former
>NEWT Potions students!)

Lissa:

Actually, I DO wonder about the narrative purposes.  A Patronus changing- 
especially when the Order uses their Patroni to communicate- could 
conceivably be a major plot point, especially as Remus says it's an 
emotional upheaval that causes a Patronus to change, not a falling in love.

Let's say- just for the sake of this argument- Snape isn't evil, and like 
Harry, he's Dumbledore's man, through and through.  What happened at the 
end of the book certainly qualifies as an emotional upheaval for Snape.  I 
can see the Order being contacted by a Patronus they don't recognize- 
perhaps another phoenix- because Snape's Patronus has changed.  There's a 
valid reason later in the book for there to have been a Patronus change in 
this one, right there, and if that happens I'll totally shut up about the 
Patronus change!

I can also imagine in my head and my own little universe that the Patronus 
change isn't necessarily a reflection of Tonks falling in love, but that 
Lupin really did something for her as a friend, which really either 
facilitated or accelerated her attraction.  (::guilty look:: After all, I 
do write Remus's Patronus as Sirius's Animagus form.  But that started 
before they got together, shortly after the Animagus transformation.)

guz:

>Yeah, to tell the truth, I don't know what we were supposed to be
>supposing about Tonks. She's as much as a red herring as Bagman was
>in GoF (i.e. not very much of one). There are some flaws with the
>plot structure and pacing in HBP, (did we really need to hear about
>Slughorn's stupid pineapple candy 27 times?) but we have what we
>have.

Lissa:

Yup.  I loved HBP- don't get me wrong.  (Very possible to, because I like 
ranting about this particular subject and don't get into the debates on 
other subjects much.)  But the whole book did have some problems with 
expository writing- almost like JKR really wanted to get it out.  But, like 
you said, we have what we have.


>guz:
>
>I'm just going to say that I'm going to leave this issue aside. It's
>my opinion that the author did not intend the readers to think that
>Lupin and Sirius were anything more than friends, and even if, for
>some reason, she did: he's dead, Jim.

Lissa:

Before the Leaky Cauldron/Mugglenet interview, I would have argued with 
you.  And I do still think there's plenty of subtext there that you can 
make a fanfic work, and work EXTREMELY well and be canon compliant.  But 
after the way JKR answered the godmother question (again!) in the 
interview- in terms of girlfriends- and the way she discussed Lupin and 
Tonks, and yeah, after she put Tonks and Lupin together in HBP, I'm firmly 
telling myself that it's something she never intended.  I wish she had, 
because it's a fantastic love story.  I give myself a 5% chance of being 
pleasantly surprised, but realistically?  Yeah, you're exactly right.  But 
even if I want to let myself read it that way, as you say, Sirius is 
dead.  So the two aren't even in conflict anyway.



>guz:
>
>Besides the fact that Molly talks about people eloping (and the fact
>that she and Arthur eleoped), the other reason I'm suggesting
>they're talking about marriage and not just "a serious relationship"
>is that they *are* books aimed at children. I'm not making a moral
>judgement (I've been with my partner 7 years, and we're not
>married!), but I try to keep my opinions in the range of the
>probable as far as the published books go. This is another reason
>why I never considered Lupin and Sirius a possible couple. Was never
>going to happen. Like you said, that's what fanfic is for!

Lissa:

I really, really hate to think you could be right on the part about her 
publishers, although after the no profanity bit, I'm not so sure.  In a 
series where a seventeen year old is murdered for being in the wrong place 
at the wrong time, explicit abuse is mentioned, and we have a pretty 
obvious metaphor for a child molester (really, could Greyback be more 
subtle?), the thought that two men in love is unacceptable is very sad to 
me.  Especially since- even if it were to be canon- you never would have 
seen them having sex anyway, and besides, there's a lot more to any 
committed romantic relationship than just sex.

Now.  Let me demonstrate my skills at over-analyzation ;)

One of the things I found very interesting about the interview was the 
transition in which JKR asked what the interviewers thought about 
Lupin/Tonks.  She didn't bring it up during the shipping 
conversation.  Instead, she brought it up after discussing Draco and the 
Death Eaters, talking about how something can look really attractive, and 
then you get involved and find out it's too much for you to handle.  Right 
from there, she said "So what do you think about Lupin/Tonks?"

Now, realistically, she's getting into some book 7 plot territory there 
(especially with good old Reg coming back into the picture), and said 
"hmmm... good time to change the subject!"  But given what Tonks has gone 
through this year (I do agree with you on that, although more on that in a 
minute), and what what Lupin is and what his life is like, my little 
over-analyzing mind can draw a really interesting connection there, 
although that goes directly against her theme of Love Conquers All.  (So I 
don't see it happening- Tonks dumping Lupin and going off with Charlie 
Weasley (which was always my pairing of choice but required them to, you 
know, MEET) because the relationship becomes too hard for her to 
handle.  Which is kind of sad, because that did happen to me once, and the 
guy in question and I stayed very good friends.  I'd love to see that 
happen realistically.)

But like I said, over-analyzing is a good skill of mine.  Impressed? :)

guz:

>The proof, for me, is that he has been talking about this "a million
>times". Really. If it was really that he "just wasn't interested,"
>it would not have gone that far.

Lissa:

Sorry- I meant I needed confirmation before that.  Some sort of 
hint.  ANYTHING that worked for me.  That's why that scene didn't work in 
my head- I couldn't believe HE had those feelings.

guz:

>I think we have different interpretations of this bit. Molly is not-
>so-subtly telling him that Tonks is *purposefully avoiding* him.
>Explaining that she is *not* enjoying Christmas with her family. Not
>that I think Lupin is sitting there, thinking about Tonks the whole
>time. I agree with you, he is having a rough time with the
>werewolves.


Lissa:

I can see that interpretation... I just really wish she'd been a little 
more clear.  ::Sigh::  Ah well.  Like you say, we get what we get!


>guz:
>
>Let me just first say up front: the hospital wing scene is my
>favorite scene in the whole book-- and not just because of
>Lupin/Tonks. I love the whole thing!

Lissa:

Actually, I do love the Bill/Fleur part, and Molly's turnaround when she 
sees that Fleur really does love Bill and will stand by him come what 
may.  It's as soon as Tonks bursts out that the scene goes downhill for 
me.  Now, I admit that there are two very personal reasons for this:

1.) As I said before, I've done the begging thing- and it hasn't 
worked.  To me, Tonks's behavior comes across as begging, and it makes me 
distinctly uncomfortable.  Bluntly put, it reminds me of things I've done 
when I was younger.  (And okay, maybe there's some jealousy there, too.  It 
NEVER worked for me- why should it work for her?  But that's also what 
spurs my disbelief.)

2.) The intrusion of the others- especially McGonagall- just bugs me.  Part 
of this is because I feel bad for Lupin.  But part of this is, admittedly, 
I've read WAY too many bad fanfics with matchmakers and- even worse- 
teachers smiling indulgently at Sirius and Lupin as they make out in the 
hall because they're so happy to see them in love.  ::gag::  This is NOT a 
fair criticism of JKR's work, because my reading is being colored by bad 
writing, and not anything that belongs to her, but it's a reason why that 
part just doesn't sit well with me at all.

guz:

>However, I forgive Tonks for that, because she has been completely
>emotionally overwhelmed. You think Remus is having a tough year?
>Tonks, after being a bubbly fresh-faced, brand new auror and Order
>member in OotP, has been in a horrific battle with her aunt and
>uncles (Bellatrix, the Lestrange brothers and Lucius, respectively),
>was severely wounded, had her cousin (the one member from that side
>of the family who isn't trying to kill her) die, is having very
>visible problems with her magic ability (how does she explain that
>to her boss, I wonder?), is trying to keep up with the secret duties
>of the Order and her job as an auror, when people are dying or
>disappearing left, right, and center. All those people dying and
>disappearing: it is her offical job as an auror to be preventing
>this. And the aurors are losing that battle badly. And the people
>doing the killing: among them are her aunts, uncles and cousins. She
>has detached herself (I noticed that she called Draco "the Malfoy
>boy"-- he's her first cousin, she must know his name), but it still
>must be traumatic. And on top of all of this, she's having man
>issues! Yeesh!

Lissa:

I do agree that Tonks had some major issues and much better reasons to be 
depressed.  It's just that the way it was handled read to me like "Okay, 
I've got my man, everything can be great again!"  It might not have been 
the intention, but with so much of my attention focused on other parts of 
the plot, that's how it came across to me.

The woman who lives next door to me (and who doesn't ship anything) 
actually told her nine-year old daughter "when you get interested in boys, 
don't act like Lavender or Tonks."  That kind of summed it up to me!

guz:

>Yeah, Remus definitely has an issue with money and pride. Are we
>supposed to believe that no one has thought to buy him a set of new
>robes for his birthday or Christmas? And that Sirius didn't leave
>him *anything* in his will for no good reason? Remus *does* need to
>get over this.

Lissa:

Definitely.  Although my theory on Sirius's will is he left everything to 
Harry to atone for his guilt, basically.  He's been obsessed- and 
understandably so- with James's death and his role in it.  I've seen the 
argument that Harry was already wealthy, but I don't think Sirius did it 
for Harry's benefit.  He did it for his own.  Anyway, that's my take on 
it.  (And that it was easy.)

But I was arguing this with one of my husband's friends, and we got on the 
subject- I said I thought it was odd.  He didn't see anything weird about 
it.  I asked him if my husband was in rags, and he had a small fortune, 
would he not leave ANYTHING to him?  He snorted at me and said "I wouldn't 
let him be in rags in the first place."  Good point.  And one I think we 
both agree on there- Remus is the one being stubborn.

guz:

>Well, the entire wizarding population has been dead men/women
>walking for all of HBP. Remember Molly's clock? Everyone is in
>mortal peril. Tonks, as an auror AND Order member, is probably more
>capable than most people in defending herself. In fact, she, as an
>auror, is probably a huge target-- more so than Lupin.

Lissa:

Well, everyone is, but the difference with Remus is he has a specific 
enemy- and one he knows far, far too well.  But yeah, Tonks is still a 
target on her own- with or without him.

I do wonder how her parents would react to all this, 
though.  "Mom!  Dad!  Meet my new boyfriend!  He's 15 years older than me, 
doesn't have a job, and oh yeah!  He's got this condition that makes him 
not only unemployable, but a social outcast!  Isn't he great?"  But then 
again, Andromeda defied her family and married Ted Tonks, so....

guz:

>Here's the thing: he's not madly in love with her. I'm not even sure
>he's in love with her at all at that point. I believe he does love
>her, and is attracted to her. Relationships don't always start with
>two people madly in love with each other. Sometimes you have to work
>up to that. Especially since the indication here is that Lupin has
>never been in a serious romantic relationship.

Lissa:

Okay- now THIS I can buy.  And in fact, that's what the basis for the 
Remus/Tonks fic I should be working on right now is- that he's willing to 
try.  But that definitely contradicts the idea that they're talking marriage.

guz:

>And here's where we agree to disagree! Like I said, I love the whole
>hospital scene -- it was probably one of my favorite scenes in the
>entire series. I do love melodrama, though! I admit it!
>
>Thanks for your thoughtful reply to my post!


And yup- that's what this whole discussion is really coming down to- 
personal preference :)  In things like relationships, an author ALWAYS has 
to be aware that personal preference and experiences are going to influence 
a reader's judgment on the relationship.  I think that's why there's so 
many Harry/Hermione shippers- because in their experience, the relationship 
between Harry and Hermione can and/or should bloom into love.

All in all, I do think one of the reasons there WAS so much shipping like 
activity in this book was because there won't be time for it in the next 
one!  (Which is why I don't expect to despise Remus/Tonks in the next book, 
even if I'll still always wish it was Remus/Sirius in canon.  But then, she 
would have needed to keep one half of the couple ALIVE, so....  ;)  Can't 
have everything!)

Lissa