SHIP:Remus/Tonks and real life experiences (long)

[guzuguzu]

No: HPFGUIDX 136791

Lissa: 

>But there were a few points I wanted to keep discussing.

guz: 

Great-- I am enjoying this discussion. I have already replied to a 
post by kiricat on this thread, so at certain points, I will point 
you there for my responses, to avoid double-posting.

Lissa:
 
>Actually, I DO wonder about the narrative purposes.  A Patronus 
>changing- especially when the Order uses their Patroni to 
>communicate- could conceivably be a major plot point, especially as 
>Remus says it's an emotional upheaval that causes a Patronus to 
>change, not a falling in love.

guz: 

Hey, I consider falling in love to be quite an emotional upheaval! ;-
) Anyway, I read JKR's bit on her website about the Order using the 
patroni to communicate, but we still don't really know how it works. 
Does the patronus speak? Does it use it's creator's voice? Has 
everyone in the Order memorized each others' patroni? Can they spot 
a fake one, or one that has been coerced? We don't know. Snape's 
comment implies that this is the first time he's seen Tonks' new 
patronus form. He didn't seem to have trouble recognizing whose it 
was, and the message wasn't even meant for him.  
 
Lissa:

>Let's say- just for the sake of this argument- Snape isn't evil, 
>and like Harry, he's Dumbledore's man, through and through.  What 
>happened at the end of the book certainly qualifies as an emotional 
>upheaval for Snape.  I can see the Order being contacted by a 
>Patronus they don't recognize- perhaps another phoenix- because 
>Snape's Patronus has changed.  There's a valid reason later in the 
>book for there to have been a Patronus change in this one, right 
>there, and if that happens I'll totally shut up about the Patronus 
>change!

guz: 

I agree- there's still more to Snape than meets the eye. The thing 
is, Snape and Tonks are completely different personality types. 
Tonks wears her heart on her sleeve (what Snape would call weak). 
Snape is also a super Occlumens and a double agent (who he's a 
double agent for, we don't know). There is no way he could have 
stayed alive this long if he couldn't control his emotions with 
respect to his magic. We've seen him lose his temper a few times, 
but it's never seemed to cause unwanted magic to happen. I have no 
idea if the idea of a changing patronus will become a significant 
plot point. It may have been a throw-away thing. 

Lissa:
 
>I loved HBP- don't get me wrong.  (Very possible to, because I like 
>ranting about this particular subject and don't get into the 
>debates on other subjects much.)  But the whole book did have some 
>problems with expository writing- almost like JKR really wanted to 
>get it out. 

guz: 

Yup. I was chuckling throughout the book at what was obviously (as 
others have mentioned) a checklist of stuff thrown in for the fans: 
The fans wonder about Zabini? Here he is! The fans wonder if Snape's 
a vampire? Nope, we'll introduce you to a real one! The fans wonder 
if Harry will use a time turner in his final battle? Nope, they're 
all smashed! I actually enjoyed that, though, and I considered it a 
present from JKR to her fans.

guz earlier:

>It's my opinion that the author did not intend the readers to think 
>that Lupin and Sirius were anything more than friends, and even if, 
>for some reason, she did: he's dead, Jim.

Lissa:
 
>Before the Leaky Cauldron/Mugglenet interview, I would have argued 
>with you.  And I do still think there's plenty of subtext there 
>that you can make a fanfic work, and work EXTREMELY well and be 
>canon compliant.  <snip>  But even if I want to let myself read it 
>that way, as you say, Sirius is dead.  So the two aren't even in 
>conflict anyway.

guz: 

Well, they are in conflict, in a way. Since you have written 
Remus/Sirius fanfic, you have obviously thought long and hard about 
the relationship possibilities between those two. I tried to put 
myself in your position-- please see post #136724:  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/136724 for what 
I came up with.

Lissa:
 
>I really, really hate to think you could be right on the part about 
>her publishers, although after the no profanity bit, I'm not so 
>sure.  In a series where a seventeen year old is murdered for being 
>in the wrong place at the wrong time, explicit abuse is mentioned, 
>and we have a pretty obvious metaphor for a child molester (really, 
>could Greyback be more subtle?), the thought that two men in love 
>is unacceptable is very sad to me.  

guz:

This is an excellent point, which kiricat also brought up. Please 
see post #136724:  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/136724 for my 
response.

Lissa: 

>One of the things I found very interesting about the interview was 
>the transition in which JKR asked what the interviewers thought 
>about Lupin/Tonks.  She didn't bring it up during the shipping 
>conversation.  Instead, she brought it up after discussing Draco 
>and the Death Eaters, talking about how something can look really 
>attractive, and then you get involved and find out it's too much 
>for you to handle.  Right from there, she said "So what do you 
>think about Lupin/Tonks?"

guz: 

This *is* interesting, and though I read this interview, I didn't 
pick up on this. Hmmm...

Lissa: 

>But given what Tonks has gone through this year (I do agree with 
>you on that, although more on that in a minute), and what what 
>Lupin is and what his life is like, my little over-analyzing mind 
>can draw a really interesting connection there, although that goes 
>directly against her theme of Love Conquers All.  

guz: 

Excellent points. I have no doubt that Lupin and Tonks' relationship 
will *not* be peaches and cream and happily ever after. But it will 
be fulfilling for both of them. 

Lissa:
 
>It's as soon as Tonks bursts out that the scene goes downhill for 
>me.  Now, I admit that there are two very personal reasons for 
>this:<...>

guz: 

Please see post #136724:  
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/136724 for my 
personal interpretation of the hospital scene. In short, I believe 
Lupin is a metaphor for someone who is HIV+.

Lissa: 

>As I said before, I've done the begging thing- and it hasn't 
>worked.  To me, Tonks's behavior comes across as begging, and it 
>makes me distinctly uncomfortable.  Bluntly put, it reminds me of 
>things I've done when I was younger.  

guz: 

Lissa, I don't know you, but I am guessing that the situations you 
were in were different cases, and did not involve a person with a 
degenerative and/or terminal illness. If I am wrong on this, please 
correct me, and please, please forgive me. Let me pose a 
hypothetical question: if you had fallen in love with someone, and 
then discovered they had a terminal illness, what would you have 
done? Tonks is begging Remus to not let his condition stand in their 
way. 

Lissa: 

>The intrusion of the others- especially McGonagall- just bugs me.  

guz: 

I admit, I loved that Lupin's former head-of-house, McGonagall gets 
on him. It's like, "Look Remus, even your former life-advisor is 
telling you you're being silly!" I wonder what she told him during 
his fifth year career-counseling session? That must have been a sad 
conversation.

Lissa:
  
>I do agree that Tonks had some major issues and much better reasons 
>to be depressed.  It's just that the way it was handled read to me 
>like "Okay, I've got my man, everything can be great again!"  It 
>might not have been the intention, but with so much of my attention 
>focused on other parts of the plot, that's how it came across to me.

guz: 

Again, difference of interpretation. I took this as a ray of light 
in a time of darkness. Everything is definitely not going to be 
great for Lupin nor Tonks after this, but I think they will find 
comfort in each other. I can't imagine (and I hope to never have the 
experience) of living through a war where there's a very good chance 
I wouldn't be alive the next day.

Lissa:
  
>The woman who lives next door to me (and who doesn't ship anything) 
>actually told her nine-year old daughter "when you get interested 
>in boys, don't act like Lavender or Tonks."  

guz: 

Ah, I find it sad that people would find parallels between 
Lavender's and Tonks' behaviors. Lavender is obviously a stereotype 
of a teenage girl in puppy love (and a realistic one, in my 
opinion). I think Tonks would be an excellent role model for anyone. 
She's a strong, selfless person. Yes, she's overemotional, but I 
forgive her that.

guz earlier:
 
>Well, the entire wizarding population has been dead men/women 
>walking for all of HBP. 
 
Lissa:
  
>Well, everyone is, but the difference with Remus is he has a 
>specific enemy- and one he knows far, far too well.  

guz: 

Hmm... interesting interpretation here. I didn't perceive Greyback 
as specific threat to Remus. He specializes in children, and Remus 
was already his victim. 

Lissa: 
 
>I do wonder how her parents would react to all this, though.  
><snip> But then again, Andromeda defied her family and married Ted 
>Tonks, so....

guz: 

Exactly-- if anyone can understand making sacrifices for love, it's 
Andromeda Tonks. And she's Sirius's favorite cousin-- are you 
telling me she wouldn't be happy that her daughter is with Sirius's 
best friend? I wonder if Andromeda and Remus know each other? I 
would love to meet Tonks' parents in the 7th book, but 
unfortunately, I know it would never end up as more than an cameo 
appearance.

<snip: guz earlier states that in the end of HBP, Lupin is not 
(yet!) madly in love with Tonks.>
 
Lissa:
  
>Okay- now THIS I can buy.  And in fact, that's what the basis for 
>the Remus/Tonks fic I should be working on right now is- that he's 
>willing to try.  But that definitely contradicts the idea that 
>they're talking marriage.

guz: 

Oh man, please let me know when you post the fic-- I'd love to read 
it! And the fact that two people aren't madly in love doesn't 
necessarily contradict the idea of marriage. In many cultures, the 
idea is that you marry first, and then learn/grow to love each other.