The "row" in the forest--what Snape doesn't want to do any more (Was: Mr. Snape

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 136730

> >>hg:
> <snip>
> My question going in is this: When does Snape discover what       
> exactly he vowed to help Draco do (whom he vowed to help Draco    
> kill)?  
> <snip>
> I have a feeling that he realizes it on the Tower, although       
> Dumbledore knew all along Draco's intended victim was him.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Hmmm.  I have to disagree with this premise.  I think Snape had a 
pretty good idea of what he was promising going into the Vow, and he 
certainy seemed to know *what* Draco was trying to do by the time of 
the Christmas party.  Snape's issue, it seemed to me, was in trying 
to discover *how* Draco planned on killing Dumbledore.  (It also 
seems strange that Dumbledore would know he was the intended victim, 
task Snape with keeping an eye on Draco, and yet *not* tell Snape 
what Draco's end goal was.)

> >>Carol:
> >It seems certain to me that Dumbledore knew about the Unbreakable 
> >Vow.
> ><snip>

> >>hg:
> Agreed.  And it could still be that Dumbledore knows what Snape   
> vowed to do without Snape knowing.

Betsy Hp:
Do you mean that Snape doesn't realize that Dumbledore knows that 
he's taken the Vow?  Because if this was the case why would 
Dumbledore continue to trust Snape?  That's a *huge* secret to be 
keeping.  Plus, Dumbledore and Snape seemed to be working together 
to try and save Draco from Voldemort.  I have a feeling that if the 
two men were working at cross purposes Dumbledore would be more 
eager for Harry's involvment.  Instead he appears quite annoyed 
which suggests, to me anyway, that Dumbledore felt he had the matter 
quite in hand.  Which further suggests to me that Dumbledore was 
getting complete updates from Snape.
 
> >>Carol:
> ><snip>
> >Almost certainly Snape is following Dumbledore's orders in       
> >speaking to Draco, not acting on his own because of the vow.
> ><snip>
> >Now he is forced, probably by Dumbledore, to take more direct    
> >action.
> ><snip> 
 
> >>hg:
> I agree that Dumbledore put him up to more direct action.  But    
> can't it also be that he's trying to figure out (and quick) just  
> what he vowed to help with?

Betsy Hp:
I disagree that Snape is taking direct action only because he's been 
forced to by Dumbledore.  For one thing, the conversation makes it 
apparent that Snape has been trying to approach Draco all term.  
Draco has been avoiding him.

"So that is why you have been avoiding me all term?  You have feared 
my interference?"  (HBP scholastic p.323)

We learn on the tower that Snape *cannot* force Draco to see him 
because he needs to appear to be helping Draco (detention could 
hardly be seen as helping) and because if it looks like Draco's 
efforts to kill Dumbledore have been discovered Voldemort will kill 
him.

"I appreciate the difficulty of your position," said 
Dumbledore.  "Why else do you think I have not confronted you before 
now?  Because I knew that you would have been murdered if Lord 
Voldemort realized that I suspected you." (ibid p.591)

So I *do* think Snape has tried to talk to Draco but he's had one 
hand tied behind his back.  And Draco, who's had the foundations of 
his world view severely shaken I think, feels that he can trust no 
one and so is avoiding his favorite professor.   After all, Snape is 
a part of the group that is holding his and his mother's life 
hostage.

No, Snape does the best he can with the opportunity Filch has handed 
him.  And I don't think he's doing it because Dumbledore forced him 
to.  Nor do I think he's trying to figure out *what* Draco's doing. 
He's trying to figure out *how*.
 
> >>Carol:
> ><snip>
> >Surely he could have pushed past Draco's easily detectable       
> >attempt at Occlumency, but he doesn't do it, either because he    
> >doesn't want to further alienate the already uncooperative Draco 
> >and arouse his suspicions that Snape is planning to tell         
> >Dumbledore what he found out, or because he is afraid that if he 
> >finds out what Draco is doing, he'll be forced by the vow to aid 
> >him. I think it's primarily the second reason.

Betsy Hp:
I have to disagree.  Snape and Dumbledore would only be benefited by 
*more* information, IMO, not less.  For one, they could make sure no 
other innocents are threatened.  For another, they could better meet 
whatever plan Draco has come up with.  And possibly, with Draco 
trusting Snape enough to work with him, they could work on turning 
Draco to the right side, as Dumbledore does up on the tower.

And that, I think, is why Snape doesn't force his way into Draco's 
mind.  I imagine he meant to enter undetected in the first place, 
and that frays Draco's trust in Snape even more.  Draco is 
definitely a boy on the edge in this scene.  He's already come close 
to killing someone (and isn't it interesting that he pretty much 
stops trying after this?).  He's already realized that Voldemort is 
not the wonderful wizard he's been led to believe.  I'm sure he 
feels that there's no one he can trust anymore.  That even his 
favorite professor would climb over Draco's dead body to cement his 
place by Voldemort's side.

Snape is trying to earn back Draco's trust and he cannot do it if he 
pushes his way into Draco's mind. 

> >>Carol:
> ><snip> 
> >I think that what Snape doesn't want to do any more has nothing  
> >to do with teaching DADA or staying at Hogwarts. It has to do    
> >with continuing his futile efforts to deal with Draco.
> ><snip>

> >>hg:
> <snip>
> I am utterly convinced that you're right.  "I don't want to be a 
> double agent anymore" doesn't make any sense, but "I don't want to 
> try to help/stop Draco" does.  Each encounter with Draco must seem 
> perilously closer to one or both of them dying.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I think that both of you are underestimating Snape's feelings for 
Draco.  I get the feeling that Snape really does care for him and 
hopes to prevent Draco from going down the same path he did in his 
youth.  Snape is so gentle with Draco in the bathroom while he's 
healing him.  And getting Draco to safety is his main concern after 
the attack on the tower.  I also feel that the fear in Snape's face 
during the Christmas party when Draco is caught out after curfew is 
a fear for Draco, rather than a fear for himself.  If Harry notices 
how terrible Draco looks I'm sure Snape notices too.

I think Snape took the Vow *precisely* because it put him into a 
postion of playing protecter to Draco.  Even when Draco refuses 
Snape's offer of help Snape is still there for him.  He can use the 
Vow as an excuse, but why did he take it in the first place if he 
wasn't interested in keeping Draco as safe as possible.

Of course, I do agree that Snape was not arguing about his role as 
double agent with Dumbledore.  That would be an idiotic move, and 
Snape is certainly not an idiot.  I think Snape was feeling the 
burden of the promise he'd made to obey Dumbledore completely (like 
the promise Dumbledore extracted from Harry) and was expressing an 
unwillingness to follow the plan and kill Dumbledore if it became 
necessary.

Betsy Hp