The "row" in the forest--what Snape doesn't want to do any more (Was: Mr. Snape

[hermionegallo]

No: HPFGUIDX 136627


hg:
Okay, Carol, I'm guessing this is the post you're so eager to hear a 
reply to?  I'm up to the job, I hope; just do me a favor and look at 
one of mine, 136339.  Like you, I've been hovering over the board, 
waiting.

I should begin by saying that I thought the post was brilliant.  My 
question going in is this: When does Snape discover what exactly he 
vowed to help Draco do (whom he vowed to help Draco kill)?  At 
Spinner's End (did he already know, or upon taking the Vow), or at 
the Christmas talk, or the forest row, or when Harry nearly murders 
Draco, or up on the Tower?  I have a feeling that he realizes it on 
the Tower, although Dumbledore knew all along Draco's intended victim 
was him.  It seems to me that in Spinner's End Snape thinks he's 
agreeing to kill Harry, that he was agreeing to the Vow because he 
needed to know what the plan was.  Do I need to re-read?  


> Carol:
> It seems certain to me that Dumbledore knew about the Unbreakable 
Vow.
> First, he is not surprised when Harry mentions it, indicating that
> Snape has already told him about his confrontation with Draco. 
Second,
> Dumbledore knows that Draco has been trying to kill him all year. He
> has not suspected anyone but Draco or been misled as to Draco's
> intended victim. He also knows or suspects that Draco has an
> accomplice outside Hogwarts, information that could be deduced from
> what Snape (or Harry) told him. 

hg:
Agreed.  And it could still be that Dumbledore knows what Snape vowed 
to do without Snape knowing.


Carol:
Snape's conversation with Draco occurs
> between the necklace incident and the poisoned mead... Almost 
certainly Snape is
> following Dumbledore's orders in speaking to Draco, not acting on 
his
> own because of the vow. Certainly he is not doing it because he 
wants
> to steal Draco's "glory." His idea of "helping" Draco, up to that
> point, has been to put his two accomplices in detention. Now he is
> forced, probably by Dumbledore, to take more direct action. At any
> rate, Draco's party crashing gives him an opportunity that can't be
> passed up. 

hg:
I agree that Dumbledore put him up to more direct action.  But can't 
it also be that he's trying to figure out (and quick) just what he 
vowed to help with?

Carol:

> When Harry tells Dumbledore about this conversation, Dumbledore is 
not
> only not surprised, he tells Harry that it's likely he understands
> more from it than Harry does, a statement that the reader ought also
> to consider... So Dumbledore knows, at the very least, that
> Draco is trying to kill him and that Snape has taken an Unbreakable
> Vow to help and protect him. Surely Dumbledore knows, even without 
the
> being told the third clause, that "help" was intended by Narcissa to
> mean "help Draco kill Dumbledore." Yet he continues to trust Snape.
> Conclusion: Snape has already told him exactly what Harry has told
> him, he knows exactly the terrible bind that Snape has placed him 
in,
> and he knows that Snape's definition of "help" differs from 
Narcissa's.

hg:
We might add that Dumbledore's mood in his meeting with Harry that 
follows the row in the forest is clearly off.  Dumbledore's probably 
been living on borrowed time up until now, and if he put it all 
together following the row, he'd realize the time was even shorter.


Carol:
[big snip here]
> Snape tries a variety of tactics in this conversation [beautifully 
detailed explanation in Carol's original post].  
Draco is supremely unconcerned that Snape has put his life
on the line...The interview has been a fiasco. There is no point in 
making a second attempt.

> No doubt Snape has told Dumbledore exactly this. "I don't know what
> he's doing. He won't talk to me. I've lost my influence over him. 
Even
> mentioning the Unbreakable Vow didn't do any good. There's nothing I
> can say or do to stop him."
> 
> It's possible, too, that Snape is afraid that trying to stop him 
will
> make matters worse instead of better, in part because of the 
conflict
> between his idea of helping Draco (preventing him from doing the 
deed)
> and Narcissa's idea of "help" (assisting him). Surely he could have
> pushed past Draco's easily detectable attempt at Occlumency, but he
> doesn't do it, either because he doesn't want to further alienate 
the
> already uncooperative Draco and arouse his suspicions that Snape is
> planning to tell Dumbledore what he found out, or because he is 
afraid
> that if he finds out what Draco is doing, he'll be forced by the vow
> to aid him. I think it's primarily the second reason.

hg:
I like that second reason, too, but I wonder if we'd have to see a 
turn from Snape in the conversation.  A realization that this Vow was 
more than he bargained for.  I'm not sure I can pinpoint a moment 
like that; can you?  I think fear of further arousing Draco's 
suspicions is part of Snape's motivation, whether the second reason 
is true or not.

Carol: 
> Snape's row with Dumbledore in the forest (where they won't be
> overheard by the portraits) occurs after Draco's second bungled
> attempt to kill Dumbledore backfires. Snape knows that
> his influence on Draco is gone. ...He
> can't even put Draco in detention, which would violate the vow
> by openly hindering him. No wonder he explodes and tells Dumbledore
> that he takes too much for granted and that he, Snape, doesn't want 
to
> do it any more. In fact, he
> may be afraid that [his efforts to help/stop Draco may] make 
matters even worse...
I think that what Snape doesn't want to do any more
> has nothing to do with teaching DADA or staying at Hogwarts. It has 
to
> do with continuing his futile efforts to deal with Draco. I think
> Dumbledore reminds him that he must at least keep an eye on Draco,
> perhaps to see where he's going and who his accomplices are... But 
that he (grudgingly) agrees to
> follow Draco is shown by his being right at hand when Moaning Myrtle
> screams "Murder in the bathroom!" At that point Snape almost 
certainly
> realizes that Dumbledore is right. Had he not been following Draco,
> Draco would have died--and so would Snape, for having broken the
> provision of his vow that requires him to protect Draco. 
> Carol, who sees Snape as trapped rather than evil in HBP.

hg:
I snipped as much as I could.

I am utterly convinced that you're right.  "I don't want to be a 
double agent anymore" doesn't make any sense, but "I don't want to 
try to help/stop Draco" does.  Each encounter with Draco must seem 
perilously closer to one or both of them dying.

I, too, see Snape as trapped.  Voldemort is certainly in my 
estimation using Narcissa's love for her son and Snape's connection 
to Draco to force a decisive loyalty-proving action out of Snape.  
I've been wondering if Dumbledore, too, wasn't forcing Snape's hand.  
That would probably make the most sense only if Snape didn't tell 
Dumbledore what he suspected Draco to be up to, and if Dumbledore 
didn't tell Snape what HE suspected.  I've been at a loss for a way 
to demonstrate my guess that Dumbledore, like Voldemort, is forcing 
Snape's hand.  Any trust that Dumbledore has for Snape, in any event, 
isn't blind.

Great post, sorry I never saw it until today.
hg.

>