No AKs - just the Ministry room of Love

[saraquel_omphale]

No: HPFGUIDX 137139

First, many thanks to Cheryl, Valky, Jen and Cathy for having mercy 
on me and picking up the thread of Love, and giving me such 
interesting answers to mull over.

>Cheryl wrote:
> I really like this idea.  It also works if you believe Harry's 
>scar is an unintentional horcrux and would be a way for Harry to 
>eliminate Voldemort, his horcruxes, and the part of Voldemort in 
>him without sacrificing himself to do so.

Saraquel:
Personally, I don't think Harry is a Horcrux, although obviously I 
agree that this is one way to eliminate the horcruxes.  The reason I 
don't think he is one, is not just because DD doesn't think he is – 
and let's face it, DD must have really thought hard about this.  But 
because of the evidence of CoS.  

The Horcrux in the diary fed off Ginny in order to bring itself to 
life.  The pieces of soul in the Horcruxes want to continue living 
and create a reality/body for themselves IMO. Was it Valky who 
suggested that each Horcrux would `demand' the death of whoever 
tried to destroy it?  I loved (well I didn't love it exactly!) that 
idea and thought it so good, that if JKR hasn't put it in, she 
should have done. 

If Harry was a Horcrux, intentional or not, that piece of soul would 
have been really trying to suck the life out of him and bring itself 
to life.   Although, we can see dark influences in Harry's nature – 
the attempts at unforgivable curses for instance – it doesn't seem 
to me that he has had to fight off the attempts of a Horcrux to 
bring itself to life.  Although cannon points to an interesting 
relationship between a living being and the Horcrux stored in it, 
when DD refers to Nagini.

Also, if Harry was a Horcrux, embodied Voldemort wouldn't need to 
access Harry's mind through legilimancy, the Horcrux would do it for 
him and Voldemort would know simply by being aware of that part of 
his soul.  If Voldemort suspected that Harry was a Horcurx, which 
surely he must have thought about, he would have made efforts to re-
connect with that part of himself and not IMO be so dismissive of 
Harry and so quick to AK him at the Ministry, knowing that he was 
AKing his own soul.


Jen wrote in 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137115

>Unlike Bella,
>who taunts Harry in OOTP, and even attempts to teach him the *right*
>way to cast an Unforgiveable (shades of Barty Crouch, Jr. as well),
>Snape takes the hard line here: "No Unforgiveable curses from you,
>Potter!"

Saraquel:
Yes, I also found that line very interesting, almost as though Snape 
knows that Harry can't afford to allow himself to be tempted by dark 
magic as it will weaken him. I really don't like Snape, I think he's 
a nasty piece of work, but I keep returning to theories that have 
him on the side of good. 

>Jen: I like Dumbledore's explanation at first, 'yes Harry, you *can*
>love'(chap. 23, p. 509), which somehow appeals to me more than just
>Love, and all the songs that go with that, lol. Harry's ability to
>love, to feel love, even though he's been abandoned, lived through a
>wretched situation at the Dursleys, seen all of his mentors die....

saraquel:
Yes Jen, this is such a good point.  It takes enormous strength to 
continue loving in this situation.  This is a type of natural 
forgiveness, where the individual is not concerned to blame, and 
play the victim. 

By playing the victim and blaming someone, you keep a connection to 
your abuser, and tie yourself down instead of breaking free and 
living your own life.  By saying `it's your fault that my life is 
like this' you deny yourself the choice to live your life as you 
want to.  

This reflects on the very important realisation that Harry has at 
the end of the Horcruxes chapter in HBP, when he realises that he is 
making a choice to face Voldemort, and he is not Voldemort's victim. 
By having this realisation, he has broken free from any power which 
Voldemort's actions had over him.  He is now his own person, and 
fear of Voldemort is no longer going to influence his decisions.  It 
goes back to Lupin's comment in PoA, when he tells Harry it is wise 
to realise that fear is the thing that is most frightening, when 
Harry tells him that he is more afraid of Dementors than Voldemort.  
IMO, the importance of the understanding that Harry comes to at the 
the end of the Horcruxes chapter is that he is willing to face his 
fears, rather than that he is willing to face Voldemort.  This has 
somehow got to be the key to his power.


>Jen wrote: I don't think Harry's a Horcrux, but I do think Voldemort
>underestimated once again by taking Harry's blood. And not because
>of Lily's protection factor, either. I think having Harry's blood
>will cause an effect like the brother wands, or the posession, and
>Voldemort won't be able to AK Harry. Once again the curse will
>rebound because Voldemort has Harry's blood in his veins. His
>*valuable* blood, according to Dumbledore, the blood of a remarkably
>pure soul who can love. Another in the long line of ways Voldemort
>chose his own enemy, and made him very powerful.

Saraquel:
Another corking comment, Jen! (if you're not familiar with the 
terminology – corking means, absolutely spot on)  I've been thinking 
quite hard about the blood angle too.  I've been wondering about 
body, soul and blood, and what they all represent.  (I have a thread 
running at the back of my mind about Voldemort's bodies – foetal and 
otherwise – but that's for another post.)  It seems to me that blood 
is heart is emotions.  

There is also the Christian concept of transubstantiation in the 
mass/communion – This is my blood, drink this in remembrance of me – 
Although as I said in my previous post, I'm not affiliated to any 
religion, but after reading interviews with JKR I think there is 
probably a Christian theology underpinning the books, although not 
too overt.  

The one thing that Voldemort lacks is any sort of compassion or 
emotion.  His taking blood from Harry has introduced love back into 
his system. This love will undermine his evil from the inside.  
Maybe Valky, that is why DD had a gleam in his eye. (Valky's 
post "And there's one other thing: Harry's Blood doesn't directly 
figure in this scenario, so I'd like to find something that 
establishes the meaning of the Gleam as well.") Whether this will 
result in the sort of effect that Jen suggests I don't know, but I 
completely agree that it is "Another in the long line of ways 
Voldemort chose his own enemy, and made him very powerful"  

If Love can destroy evil, which I think is probably the ultimate 
theme of the books, then having Harry's blood in him is bringing 
about Voldemort's destruction from the inside.

>Jen: Your theory reminds me a little bit of Dorian Grey. It's been a
>long time since I read it, but it seems like the moment he puts a
>knife into the painting, all the 'sins' kept apart from his soul are
>torturously visited upon his current self.

Saraquel:
I haven't read the book, but I'm familiar with the story and can see 
where you're coming from.

>Jen wrote: You know, I like the idea the Horcruxes will be thrown 
>in >that room,or through the veil, to be destroyed. Sort of like 
>Harry slipping the bezoar to Slughorn? Yeah, it was the easy way 
>out but also clever, and Harry & Co. don't have much time left.

Saraquel:
In some ways it is the easy way out in terms of the diet we are 
normally fed which is blood, guts and violence win the day.  But I 
think JKR is setting the book up to be different.  She did not make 
Harry the conventional superhero.  His courage is the courage to 
love against the odds.  His lesson IMO, is that if he really wants 
to beat Voldemort, he has to stop thinking unforgivable curses and 
start thinking power of love.  He has to stop seeing love as a 
nothing, a luxury for the easy times, and start to see it for what 
it really is, what DD knows it is.  OotP p743 UK ed "There is a room 
in the Department of Mysteries,' interrupted Dumbledore, `that is 
kept locked at all times.  It contains a force that is at once more 
wonderful and more terrible than death, than human intelligence, 
than the forces of nature."

As a side comment here, splitting up with Ginny is not IMO a good 
move on Harry's part.  He is thinking of keeping her safe, but 
actually, in order to beat Voldemort, he needs to access the love in 
himself, he needs to feel, and Ginny helps him to do that.  I would 
not be surprised if Ginny cottons onto this fact somewhere in book 
7, and insists on being around him.

>Jen wrote: I want to visit the locked room for another reason--to 
>find out Lily worked in the DOM, perhaps in that very room, where 
>she learned about the kind of love you're talking about. You 
>suggested it might be a Last Judgement Love and I'm hoping for a 
>form of Compassionate Love.

>Valky wrote in: 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137121
>IMO this theory is really strong Saraquel, because I agree that we
>should look outside the box of Lovey dovey Mushy sweet things about
>Love when looking for this final Love that will defeat Voldemort.

Saraquel:
To me, Last Judgement Love (for want of a better phrase) is the 
highest form of compassion – and I suppose this is where I differ 
from Christian thinking – in that, I think it redeems through 
purification.  It destroys evil in the soul, leaving it pure, and in 
knowledge of its true nature, rather than damming it to eternal 
torment.  But I think to say any more about that is to take the 
discussion away from the books and possibly from what JKR is trying 
to say, so I`ll leave it at that. 

But Jen's comment about Lily, I find very interesting.  I too, 
speculate that Lily worked in the DoMysteries.  But, what's 
interesting about this room is that DD has said (see above quote) 
that it is kept locked at all times.  So a variety of questions 
arise:
1) How can you study what is in there if it is always locked?
2) What is in there and how did it get to be in there in the first 
place if it is so `dangerous'?
3) What happens to you when you go in there?

I have been pondering what is in the room, because I do think that 
the final defeat of Voldemort is going to happen inside that room. 
In my last post I suggested that the experience inside the room 
might be like looking in a Mirror of Truth.  Maybe, that's what is 
in the room, a mirror, foreshadowed by the Mirror of Erised.  And 
perhaps, Cathy, the title of book seven is Harry Potter and the 
Mirror of Truth! :-)

As to what happens when you go in there, I think that's what I 
outlined in my last post.

>Valky wrote: "So I like Last Judgement Love, a lot. Because it *is* 
>terrifying. And we have seen it, in Harry, several times these are 
>the places in HBP I think we've seen it." Followed by examples

Saraquel:
Valky, thanks for those examples, I really think they key into the 
theme and they really made me think again about the moments you 
described.

>Valky wrote: However, I think if it is within the room in the MOM, 
>then perhaps Harry will be bringing it out to Voldemort.
 
Saraquel:
I'm interested to know why you think this. I'm doubtful that Harry 
actually has the power to be the embodiment of this type of love.  I 
may be wrong here, that could be JKR's real punchline – that whoever 
you are, however `ordinary', you can embody the real power of love. 
But it seems to me, that first you have to be without sin, so to 
speak, to destroy the sins of others. 

I think I need to respond to Valky's post 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/137113 LOVE 
Saves the Day, in a separate post.  This one is already quite long 
enough.  So, as you can see, I was really eager to discuss the 
topic. Pick and choose what interests you to respond to.

Thanks again everyone,
Saraquel