[HPforGrownups] Pensieves and other magic (wasRe: HBP (Snape's) old school textbook:

[Kathryn Jones]

No: HPFGUIDX 137189

spotsgal wrote:

> Christina:
> I agree that Snape is particularly ashamed of calling Lily a
> "Mudblood," but I don't see why he would be so careful about hiding it
> from Harry.  I really don't think Harry would be all that shocked to
> hear "Mudblood" come from Snape's mouth, and he already dislikes Snape
> so much already that I doubt that the knowledge that he called his mom
> dirty names would have significantly increased that hatred.  Also,
> Harry doesn't seem that bothered by it afterwards, fixating instead on
> James (as he always does).
   Christina

Kathy writes:
    Good point, but I am looking at it from Snape's POV. If it is 
something that he feels puts him in a worse light than he is prepared to 
live with, I think he would remove it. Also, if he felt for some reason 
that it gave any indication that he and Lily had been friends, he may 
have felt that he needed to remove it. I don't think he cares what Harry 
thinks, but something about that memory needed to be removed. I don't 
recall if it was your post, but the idea that there is something about 
that memory needed to be hidden from the Harry/Voldemort connection was 
a valid one. We perhaps just disagree on the reason.
KJ

> Christina:
> I think he does.  When Snape pushes Harry out of his head, he's white
> and shaking.  Harry even remarks on the "loathing in his eyes."  Snape
> isn't physically hurting Harry like he does later on, but he's
> definitely *not* pleased.  Also, in pushing Harry out of his head, his
> "ENOUGH!" is in all caps, which Snape doesn't often revert to (he does
> in the "Don't call me coward" line and at the end of PoA, both times
> when he was extremely angry/upset)
   Christina

Kathy writes:
    I think that it was difficult for him and probably painful for such 
a hidden repressed individual. It was immediately followed by "Well 
Potter...that was certainly an improvement." That has got to be the 
first real praise that Harry has ever had from Snape. After the first 
lesson, the best he got was "Well, for a first attempt that was not as 
poor as it might have been." It's almost as though Snape forgets to be 
completely miserable when he is actually teaching and forgets to teach 
when he is being actively miserable.
KJ

> Christina:
> Well, we don't really know how Snape acts when he's nervous or afraid,
> because to be honest, I can't think of a single instance where he's
> described that way (in any of the books).  When Snape realizes that
> Harry has seen the DoM, Snape stands over Harry, "looking furious,"
> and Harry remarks that "Snape seemed even angrier than he had done two
> minutes before, when Harry had seen into his own memories."  I would
> buy that scared!Snape manifests itself as angry!Snape, but why is
> Snape scared?  Because he realizes that LV can put thoughts in Harry's
> head?  Because he realizes that LV saw the thoughts that Harry broke
> into?  Because he is angry that Harry isn't putting any effort into
> Occlumency?  Also, just to note, Snape doesn't know that Harry dreamt
> of Voldemort talking to the Death Eater.  Ron witnesses it and they
> tell Hermione the next day, but Harry never mentions it to Snape.
   Christina

Kathy writes:
      In the first lesson, Snape is described as speaking slowly and 
deliberately as though he weighed every word. He snarls at Harry for 
speaking Voldemort's name and unconsciously rubs his left forearm. When 
Harry asks about the Dept of Mysteries, Snape is described as unnerved 
and when Harry again said Voldemort's name, Snape was described as 
agitated. He immediately broke off the lesson. Considering the fact that 
Snape had just admitted that finding out what Voldemort was saying to 
his Death Eaters was his job, I find that his paleness and shaking was 
more a result of fear than of anger. It was after this, that he then 
checked his penseive "as though checking that his thoughts were still 
there" and praised Harry for his success. He didn't become furious until 
Harry again allowed visions of the Ministry into his head. I think that 
this Occlumency stuff is giving Snape fits.  Snape seems to express both 
fear and frustration as anger.
KJ

> Christina:
> I see what you're saying, but the major immediate revelation of
> "Snape's Worst Memory" *is* about the Marauders- it's that
> Marauders:Snape is NOT Trio:Malfoy, like I think Harry (and most of
> the readers) previously assumed.  And Snape *always* harps on James.
> Considering the fact that the last thing Harry sees when he gets
> pulled out of the pensieve is James threatening to take off Snape's
> pants (and that Snape takes every opportunity to talk badly about
> James), I think it's natural that Snape's only comment about the
> memory is about James.
   Christina

Kathy writes:
    You are of course quite correct except for what appears to be blank 
surprise on Lily's part at being called a mudblood. Herminone by fifth 
year expects nothing else from Malfoy. Unless Lily considered Snape to 
be a friend, why would she be so surprised? If Snape was really ESE at 
that time in his life, why would he choose to hide that memory. I don't 
think he wanted to protect Harry from knowing what his father was like, 
and I don't think he wanted to hide his hatred of the Marauders from 
Voldemort, so that only leaves something about Lily.
KJ

> Christina:
> Is there ever any mention of Lily?  We go five whole books before
> anyone really says anything about who she was.  Harry always focuses
> on his father.  He asks Sirius and Lupin about James because his
> behavior in the pensieve is in contrast with the way Harry had
> previously thought James acted.  Lily's behavior probably didn't seem
> that odd to him, or his thoughts on his father overshadowed those on
> his mother (as they usually do).  Harry has occasionally shown
> curiousity about his father, but he has never asked about his mom.
> Harry's lack of curiousity about his mother has always seemed odd to
> me- and just where are all of *Lily's* friends?  JKR has even said
> that she was a popular girl, but so far only Slughorn has ever
> commented on her.
   Christina

Kathy writes:
    Those are all very valid questions. In a lot of ways, we are 
encouraged away from interest in Lily. Lily gave her life for Harry and 
yet he is more curious about his father. It is Lily's protection that 
has kept him alive to this point and yet he does not question anyone 
about his mother. Dumbledore gives Harry his father's cloak, does he 
have nothing of Lily's? Snape immediately brings up James after the 
penseive incident. Harry's Patronus is based on his father. Harry knows 
Hagrid was at the school while the Marauder's, Snape, and Lily were 
there. Does he ever think to ask any questions? JKR in the way she 
writes all this is continually directing us away from Lily, other than 
remarks about her eyes.
KJ