Last Judgement Love - Was (Re: No AKs )

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 137362

--- In HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com, "Mari" <mariabronte at y...> wrote:
> Wanted to respond to some thoughts in this absolutely great thread :-D

Valky:
I'm glad you're enjoying it Mari. :D 

> Mari:
> 
> This is something I've been turning over in my mind a lot in  
> relation to the Harry Potter series. JKR certainly seems to be  
> leading us towards a concept of love that is not just a feeling, it 
> is a *choice*. Love can mean choosing to do something that totally  
> goes against your inclinations, but you do it anyway because it is 
> the right or necessary thing to do. 

Valky:
I think you're right about that Mari. I don't think it can be argued
against at all. By JKR's own admission, the HP series explores death
and its finality. Through Dumbledore we know that there is a distinct
supposition about choices and a persons free will being explored in
the themes and by virtue of the storyline we are informed that Love is
to be revealed as the greatest power of all the magic that we'll see
in the Potterverse.
 
If we are looking for Love and Choice and the finality of death rolled
into some tangible climax to the series I reckon that the Agape (the
God Love) as viewed from this last Judgement standpoint has got to be
right on the money. 

Choosing what's right over what is easy, does sum up much of what can
be said about this kind of Love. And as I said to you earlier, and
can't pass the opportunity to say again, it doesn't seem like love,
it's not an emotion or a feeling, it's actually so pure it's brutal,
like the Love that Burned Quirrels face at the end of PS/SS. But to
face it and accept it, as Harry will have to in the end of his series,
then it is like Phoenix Tears, a panacaea for all pain and suffering.
So it will parrallel the Phoenix song at the end of GOF, that song is
a representation of the same kind of Love, something so pure that it
strikes fear in the heart of the impure and bolsters the good with
courage and strength. Gosh I could go on and on.. lets just say it
can't be argued that this concept is outside the box that JKR is
thinking in. <g>


Mari:
> It is very easy to think of love as 
> a 'mushy' feeling; agape/last judgement love has little to do with 
> our feelings and everything to do with the choices we make in 
> relation to other people. The loving choice is not always the choice 
> we want to make. The loving choice is not always the easy choice. 
> The loving choice can mean sacrificing reputation, friends, trust,  
> or even your life, if necessary.


Valky:
I see in there a smallish nod towards the things I said about the
Pensieve incedent too, Mari. Yes, I think James and Sirius as young
boys were prepared to make sacrifice for what was right, they weren't
perfect by any measure, but the fact that they had it in themselves to
make a choice like that willingly is strung through their whole story
which makes it hard for me to dismiss even when they are bullying
Snape. It was always wrong for them to think it was their place to
push Sevvie to let go of his illusions, after all they were still
hanging on to many of their own. But, that said, if we are going to
explore this theme then we are going to delve into Snape's redemptions
and misdeeds a lot. In a way I see him as an intricate extension of
Harry in the story, a part of the whole that undergoes it's own
transgressions and redemptions, the Pensieve scene is already being
slowly revealed as equally a trangression on Snapes behalf as on James
and Sirius. It is being revealed that Snape and Lily were comrades of
a sort, both members of the Slug Club and both extraordinary students.
Snape could not have kept from himself forever that "Mudblood" was
just a dirty word while he was so clearly exposed to the
contradiction. I noticed in HBP that Snape was even more tolerant of
Hermione, for certainly after all has been said and done, he could
only fool himself that she is anything but brilliant and talented. He
seems eminiently capable of percieving truth, but as a young man
perhaps he wasn't so inclined to trust that it was useful. He called
Lily a Filthy little Mudblood in the penseive, and how could ever
stand by such an undignified outburst. He unleashed a dark and
dangerous magic on James, how could he then honestly say to himself
that he was innocent. These are the things that Snape cannot justify,
he has to face his own self and see in the purest sense the terrifying
truth about those choices. They are stains on his soul.

As Mari said: "The loving choice can mean sacrificing reputation,
friends, trust, or even your life, if necessary." There was/is still
time for Sevvie to make the Loving choice here and sacrifice his pride
for what is right, first though, he has to face the kind of love that
will bear these consequences out on him and allow him to see what he
truly is. The kind of Love that Harry will need to bring to Voldemort.
It all seems *so* not nice, but it's actually the kindest isn't it, a
Love that can purify out the stains on our soul that cause us the
greatest anguish. The ones that live in our Worst Memory.
Thats the one kind of Love that I think would be able to
satisfactorily complete Harry's Story. I doubt tht JKR would reach for
something less. And I also hope that she wouldn't.


   


> 
> > Valky:
> 
> > If any Snape lovers are still reading, this is the reason I have 
> > for believing that Snape can be redeemed again. For the first time 
> > ever in the series I did see tiny glimpses of him in HBP *finally* 
> > facing his own truth and walking the path he laid for himself 
> > bravely, like a man ready to open himself to this Agape -  
> > Judgement love. 

> Mari again:
> 
> Yes, definitely. If Snape was acting according to Dumbledore's 
> orders in a similar way to Harry forcing Dumbledore to drink the  
> potion in the cave, this is a clear example of making a terribly  
> difficult choice for the sake of love. 


Valky:
Yes this would be the ultimate icing on that cake for me. And I think,
thinly stretched through the HBP chapter is a *lot* of indications
that this is the case. Yet even if it isn't, those indications are
such that it is clear to me anyhow, while killing DD might have been a
terrible act of evil on Snapes behalf, Snape was all but ready to face
his demons right before he did it. To me, either its a tragedy that
will drive Snape to his destruction, or it's one more agony that he
was willing to face in his redemption. In both cases, I doubt Snape
will live out the series, but I will take great pains to point out
that there is a mass of evidence that he is *not* /doomed/, in fact
he's quite the contrary.

I still wonder if anyone else was piqued, like me, to read the passage
about Snape appearing to be in as much pain as the *Dog* (Fang) stuck
in the building behind them. I thought this was a clear allusion to
Sirius, myself, very very cleverly inserted into the most profound
moments between Snape and Harry of the whole book. 

> > Jen:
> > The point I made about all the good Dumbledore did for many people
> > and creatures is really only half of the equation for 
> > compassionate love. I think we saw the other half in the cave, 
> > after Dumbledore drank the potion. 
> 
> Mari again:
> 
> We also saw Harry's love for Dumbledore being put to the test; the 
> easy choice would be to refuse to give Dumbledore the potion. The 
> loving choice is to do what he knows is necessary to accomplish the 
> task they came to do. This sort of love can seem harsh. It isn't 
> separated from compassion though; when you truly love someone, you 
> usually feel love for them. However, the next step is to do what is 
> right/necessary/loving  even when your feelings rebel against it. 
> 
> This is the love that Harry is learning, and one of the reasons I 
> believe Snape will be important in the last book whatever his role 
> turns out to be. Harry will face one of his ultimate tests; showing 
> last judgement love towards Snape, when his feelings about Snape  
> push him towards hate rather than love. He has had practice though, 
> in an easier situation; sparing Peter's life in PoA.

Valky:
I entirely agree. And I agree that Harry's feelings will make it
hugely harder to have mercy on Severus Snape. However, in an ironic
twist, I think Snape will turn out to be more deserving than Pettigrew
ever was. Though Harry won't realise that until he's actually faced
this test. He will forgive Snape. I am sure he will, but not before he
discovers more of Snapes unpleasant truths and it is almost downright
impossible to do so. I can see the story heading for a poignant moment
when we kind of know that this huge weight has just been lifted from
Sevvies shoulders and for a fleeting moment it seems like he and Harry
have an understanding at last, for a split second we'll see Snape so
close to admitting that he actually cares about Harry.. then his face
will curl into a sneer again and with a humourless laugh Snape will
face his final fate... or something like that. HAHA, lets just hope
for *ALL* those answers we've been waiting for to be revealed before
then.. 

;D Valky