It's over, Snape is evil (was: Dumbledore and Snape again)
Matt
hpfanmatt at gmx.net
Fri Aug 12 17:52:30 UTC 2005
No: HPFGUIDX 137423
--- eggplant wrote:
> I can think of 5 objections to the Snape killed Dumbledore
> reluctantly on Dumbledore's orders ... theory. I believe any
> one of them is strong enough to torpedo the entire idea.
OK, for purposes of responding then, I take it we can hypothesize that
Dumbledore and Snape had a firm plan (possibly conditioned on events
that came into actuality by the time of the tower scene) that Snape
would finish off Dumbledore, thereby cementing his place in
Voldemort's inner circle for some as-yet-unknown higher purpose. That
is, I believe, the hypothetical that you are proposing to torpedo.
On to your objections, then:
> 1) Snape already had Voldemort's trust, we are told in
> chapter 2 that he is the Dark Lord's closest adviser and he
> already knows of the Top Secret plan to kill Dumbledore,
> there was no need for the Order of the Phoenix to lose their
> most powerful wizard for Voldemort to trust him.
Several responses:
1) As others have already pointed out, it's pretty hard to know whom
Voldemort really trusts. Just because Draco and his mom think Snape
is the most trusted doesn't mean it's so.
2) Trust is a commodity, not an on-off state. Voldemort may have some
trust in Snape, but he must also have doubts about him and his
possible loyalty to Dumbledore (indeed, if Snape is to be believed,
Voldemort has expressed all of the same doubts that Bellatrix voices
at Spinner's End). Publicly murdering Dumbledore ought to go a long
way toward dispelling the remaining doubts.
3) You are fighting the hypothetical, which assumes that Snape would
only kill Dumbledore if it actually became necessary. Even if Snape
had Voldemort's trust before the confrontation on the tower, that
trust was 100% at risk once Snape walked up those stairs and took in
the scene. If Snape had obstructed Voldemort's plan to kill
Dumbledore, rather than aiding it, he'd have raised a huge new
question about his loyalty.
> 2) It doesn't matter if Snape knows of Voldemort's plans
> now because he can't tell anyone, nobody in the OotP would
> believe him, in fact they'd kill him on sight before he could
> even open his mouth.
1) You assume that the only use for Snape is to pass information on
Voldemort's plans, but there are many uses for double-agents other
than molework. Dumbledore may have thought Snape could (subtly or
unsubtly) interfere with Voldemort's plans from within his inner circle.
2) You also assume that the Order's current lack of trust in Snape
cannot be remedied. That underestimates both Dumbledore and Snape.
a) If Dumbledore had a plan that requires the Order to trust Snape, he
presumably has many methods at his disposal for providing a message
from "beyond the grave" -- Pensieve, suicide note, some form of
"recorded" message, etc. etc.
b) Snape has already shown he is pretty good at restoring others'
trust in him. He managed to simultaneously get the two most powerful
wizards of his time (and apparently two of the most accomplished
Legilimenses ever) to believe diametrically opposite stories
concerning his loyalty in a struggle that means everything to both of
them. I do think Harry will have trouble ever believing him because
of his personal animus, but I don't see it as at all out of the
question that Snape could convince someone more analytical, like
McGonagall or Hermione, that he was simply doing what was best for
everyone.
3) Even if Snape's only use were to pass information and even if he
had no inherent credibility, information can still be useful even if
you don't believe its source -- even if the information only gives you
one more thing to be on guard against, you are much less likely to be
off-guard after hearing the information from someone you don't trust
than you would be without hearing it at all.
> 3) Snape seemed to be enjoying himself enormously when he
> murdered Dumbledore and nobody is that good an actor.
1) Snape *is* that good an actor. See 2(b) above.
2) We saw the scene through Harry's eyes, which have been known to
deceive, particularly where Snape is concerned.
3) Even in Harry's eyes, Snape didn't look happy; he exuded "revulsion
and hatred." It's already been observed that those emotions could
have been a reaction to what Dumbledore was asking him to do rather
than a reaction to the man himself.
> 4) I do not believe Dumbledore would ask anyone to become
> a murderer.
1) Perhaps you underestimate Dumbledore's commitment to winning the
war against Voldemort.
2) If the hypothesis you are attacking is correct, Dumbledore didn't
ask Snape to become a "murderer" because once he asked him the killing
would not have been murder. I'm oversimplifying the morality here,
and I'm not trying to start a debate about the ethics of mercy
killing, assisted suicide, etc., but I think almost everyone would
agree that there is a moral distinction between asking someone to kill
you and asking them to kill someone else.
3) The morality of the hypothetical plan is even further complicated
by Snape's vow to Narcissa. Suppose the request Dumbledore made was
simply "if it comes down to killing me or breaking your vow (and dying
yourself), I insist that you kill me." Essentially, the request was
no different from the one Dumbledore warned Harry he might make of
him: "If I tell you to leave me, and save yourself, you will do as I
tell you?" (HBP, ch. 25).
4) As others have observed, the request also parallels rather neatly
with the scene in the cave where Dumbledore insists that Harry pour
the potion down his throat even though they both know it is probably
some kind of poison.
> 5) If Dumbledore did have some sort of wacky plan he would
> have to be brain dead dumb not to tell Harry about it; he
> must know that after Harry saw him be murdered by Snape he
> would never rest until Snape was dead, or Harry was.
1) I agree that it is difficult to understand why Dumbledore would
have positioned Harry to watch this scene. I've chronicled in another
post (#136067) a number of possible reasons, ranging from simple lack
of a better alternative, to the need for Harry to see Draco's change
of heart, to a desire to harden Harry for the final pursuit of
Voldemort. See http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/136067
2) Harry's own words refute your theory about his reaction. He does
not say he won't rest until Snape is dead. He says he won't rest
until *Voldemort* is dead, and if Snape gets in his way, so much the
worse for Snape. Maybe Harry has been further poisoned against Snape
-- maybe he already hated and mistrusted Snape so much that there is
little incremental impact on him -- but either way, watching the scene
on the tower did not distract Harry from his central mission against
Voldemort.
-- Matt
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