The Nature of Lily's sacrifice - Was:Last Judgement Love

[saraquel_omphale]

No: HPFGUIDX 137567

>Saraquel wrote:
>If the parallels to JKR's faith are in play here (I believe she 
>said that no-one after reading the end of the series could be in 
>any doubt about her faith.)<snip>
>Then Lily's choice could
> have paralleled Christ's choice. I say that with the greatest
> caution, as I in no way wish to offend anyone. The last thing that
> I wish to imply is that Lily is Christ in some way, especially
> as I do not adhere to Christianity or any other religion, but
> have great respect for all faiths. But perhaps it parallels it in
> some way. That Lily's choice, whatever it was, was a redemptive
> choice. It was a choice which offered hope to everyone.

Geoff wrote:

>Speaking as an evangelical Christian, I see nothing to make me take
>offence to your comments. 

Saraquel:
Thank you for responding to my concerns Geoff. Now that I know you 
at least have not found my comments offensive in any way, I feel 
somewhat freer to delve a little deeper into this line of thinking. 
I am aware that discussion of the subject of religion is not allowed 
on this list, but find myself in the position of needing to 
reference it in order to speculate on the meaning of Lily's 
sacrifice, in the same way that people have been discussing the 
meaning of the Tarot or Egyptian mythology.    

Geoff wrote:
>I am reminded of one of Christ's comments
>which I feel is germane to this discussion:
>"Greater love has no-one than this, that he lays down his life for
>his friends" (New Testament John 15:13)

Saraquel:
That particular verse has always moved me greatly, but I think JKR 
is meaning something even deeper than this by Lily's sacrifice. Here 
is the part of the Mugglenet/LC interview that makes me think that:

>JKR: 
 But the caliber of Lily's bravery was, I think in this 
>instance, higher because she could have saved herself. <snip> 
>MA: Did she know anything about the possible effect of standing in 
>front of Harry?
>JKR: No - because as I've tried to make clear in the series, it 
>never happened before. No one ever survived before. And no one, 
>therefore, knew that could happen.
>MA: So no one - Voldemort or anyone using Avada Kedavra - ever gave 
>someone a choice and then they took that option [to die] -
>JKR: They may have been given a choice, but not in that particular 
>way.

To me this implies that there is something more in the mix than Lily 
just laying down her life for Harry when she had the choice not to. 
If she just chose to die for her son, then I feel that she would 
have fulfilled the meaning of NT John 15:13 and the conditions set 
out in MA's question that begins "So no one –Voldemort 
."

Although I am not a Christian, I have studied world religions and my 
understanding of Christian theology around Christ's death is that it 
enabled everyone to surmount the curse of original sin and attain 
forgiveness and redemption.  

Just to clarify for those unfamiliar with this. Original sin was 
brought into the world in the Garden of Eden, when the serpent 
tempts Eve with an apple from the tree of Knowledge and she eats it. 
>From that moment on, Adam and Eve (the first and only, I think, 
woman and man on earth at the time) and all their descendants are 
divorced from God. This is the curse of original sin which everyone 
has inherited.  God then sent his son, Christ, in the form of Jesus, 
to redeem the world through an act of love. When Jesus sacrifices 
himself on the cross, he does this in the name of everyone's sin 
(Hence the saying, `Jesus died for me'). This builds a bridge 
between women/men and God again, and allows them, through acceptance 
of Christ's sacrifice (i.e. becoming a Christian), to be absolved 
from original sin and attain divine love and redemption.  I do hope 
that I have done enough justice, in this simple explanation, to this 
very complex and subtle theology. I am also aware that different 
Christian denominations have differing views as to exactly how one 
gains salvation through acceptance of Christ's death.

Another, for me, relevant piece of the Christian story here, is 
Christ's experience in the wilderness, where he is tempted by Satan, 
the devil, and offered Power and Dominion over the world, but he 
refuses.

Ok, if we now go back to Lily's sacrifice with these two pieces of 
background, what can we surmise?

To me it seems obvious that Voldemort is symbolic of Satan for these 
reasons.
1) His stated belief that there is no good or evil but only power.
2) His ruthless pursuit of world domination.
3) His rejection of death. The devil's ambition is to have power and 
dominion over this world for ever, not, to be released from it and 
go to heaven.
4) His snake-like physical appearance (the snake in the Garden of 
Eden).

So what is the choice that Voldemort offers Lily? I think, in some 
way he offers her immortality in this world and what he sees as 
everlasting Power and Dominion over the this world, which parallels 
the choice of Christ in the wilderness. 

Exactly what form this takes, I'm not sure, but I would like to 
reference Valky's idea here, which I thought was a brilliant 
deduction and have been storing away for future use. It was made in 
the context of Living Horcruxes, Voldemort marking Harry as his 
equal and what happened with the failed AK and very much explores 
what I am exploring here, but from a different starting point.  I 
would *highly recommend* that you read the whole post if you are 
interested enough in this theme, to get this far into my post.

In  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/134566  
Valky wrote:

>So wobbling around on these premises somewhere is an ugly disturbing
>hypothesis..Voldie went to Godrics Hollow to kill Harry and use the 
>event to make Lily a living, Horcrux, equal she-mate... Like 
>Nagini..
>
>Make her an offer she can't refuse.. and she'll step aside.. 
>perhaps.
>
>Ok, when you're finished throwing up..
>
>I'll continue.
>
>Lily sacrificed herself for Harry and left a lingering protection
>thereby. Harry's blood connection to Lily extended the protection to
>him. When Voldemort took Harry's blood he thought he was actually,
>bypassing the protection left by Lily's sacrifice, but DD thought
>otherwise.
>
>So lets assume that Voldie waltzed into GH and offered Lily the 
>world at her feet, the sharing of equal power with the ruler of the 
>world,the path to her own immortality etc etc. And she said "No 
>thanks I'll keep my baby boy instead." What happened then?

Saraquel:
I think that this may be a distinct possibility, that Voldemort 
offered to make Lily into a Horcrux and offered her immortality to 
boot.  But Voldemort offered it to her on the basis of murdering her 
son. This really would parallel Jesus' temptation on the wilderness, 
if I remember rightly, it was something along the lines of, Give up 
God and I will give you the world. I don't think that Lily would 
have been at all tempted by the power and dominion stuff and 
particularly on the basis of giving up the love of her son, in order 
that Voldemort could murder him.

Now why would Voldemort choose Lily? Especially as she is muggle 
born. I think that part of the reason for Voldemort's choice is tied 
up with Snape somehow. Quite how I don't know, but I might speculate 
on that in a later post. There is also Hagrid's comment about Lily 
and James in PS p45 "Suppose the myst'ry is why You-Know-Who never 
tried to get `em on his side before.." which indicates to me that 
Voldemort knew about them and that they had/did something that was 
of particular interest to Voldemort.  Did they work in the 
Department of Mysteries with the Room of Love?  I can imagine that 
Voldemort is very interested in the *Power* in that room. But I 
digress


Another reason why I think Voldemort might have deliberately chosen 
a muggle born, is his desire for *total* world domination – both 
wizard and muggle.  Is this why JKR has deliberately included the 
muggle world in the story, via the Prime Minister scene? Horcrux!
Lily would symbolise his domination over the muggle world as well.  

Voldemort is so convinced that Power is the only thing that matters, 
that he would not be able to conceive that Lily might turn him 
down.  I can see that he would have used his very charming and 
persuasive self, to really make it seem the right option to take. 
But as we know, whatever it was that Voldemort offered Lily, she 
turned him down.

So, finally, where does that leave us:
Voldemort threatens to kill Harry.  The prophecy has indicated that 
there is a possibility that someone can defeat Voldemort. But at 
this  point, I think, the power to do it, referred to in the 
prophecy does not exist. IMO, this is why, JKR suggests that there 
might be more than one child it refers to. It is Voldemort, making 
the *choice* to make a Lily!Horcrux and kill Harry that actually 
creates this power.  It was Satan's choice to tempt Eve that 
necessitated God to send his redeeming power in the form of Jesus. 

When Lily decides to sacrifice herself, paralleling Jesus' 
sacrifice, then the ancient magic of the power of love enters into 
the equation. Lily dies – Jesus dies – but what is left is a power 
that now runs in Harry's blood and in his body, which is the special 
power referred to in the prophecy.  Lily's sacrifice did not in 
itself redeem the world from Voldemort, just as Jesus' sacrifice did 
not cleanse the world of sin.  But through her sacrifice, she 
bequeathed the *power* to be redeemed, as Jesus did. It is the 
special thing that is in Harry's *more valuable* blood which Harry 
can use, as long as he makes the right choices, to conquer 
Voldemort. Just as it is the special thing in the body and blood of 
Christ in the Communion/mass which empowers Christians to live their 
lives in such a way as to be redeemed.  

There is a thread that I have had at the back of my mind for some 
time now about Voldemort's search for an immortal body, which I 
think is an essential ingredient in this mix - but it still needs 
more though and I'm not going there now.

There is part of me that thinks, now I've got this far, that I have 
said nothing new, well nothing that Valky has not already said. If 
so, I'm sorry it's been such a long haul to get nowhere much :-) 
However, I know it has helped *me* to understand better the possible 
nature of Lily's sacrifice.  I think there is more that can be 
deduced from thinking on this theme, that might well take us further 
to solving what happened when Voldemort cast the fateful AK and what 
happens in the final showdown.  But that's either for another post 
of mine, or another post from anyone who is following this theme. 
Please, please, do add your thoughts to cauldron.

Saraquel