It's over, Snape is evil

[Cathy Drolet]

No: HPFGUIDX 137578

Matt said:
 Even if Snape had Voldemort's trust
> before the confrontation on the
> tower, that trust was 100% at risk
> once Snape walked up those stairs 
> and took in the scene.If Snape had
> obstructed Voldemort's plan to kill
> Dumbledore, rather than aiding it,
> he'd have raised a huge new
> question about his loyalty.   

Eggplant: 
>Not so, Snape could have killed all the Death Eaters and then told
Voldemort that Dumbledore had done it. It would make a plausible
story, Draco really didn't confide all the details to Snape so he
could claim to be on the other side of the castle at the time.

CathyD now:
He'd have had to kill Draco, too.  You're forgetting Priori Incantato that can be used on a wand to find out the last spell it cast.  I'm quite sure there is another spell, another way, to find out the last *few*.   At the very least, Snape would have had to remember to kill Dumbledore last.  By that time he may not have needed to kill him he'd already have been dead from the poison.  The point on the Tower scene is that Snape has to appear to be a DE in front of the DEs.  He cannot *cannot* break that cover. (He'd have been killed either by the DEs on the tower, or by LV himself later.) Snape is too important to the rest of Dumbledore's plan.  The fact that Harry is there to witness this was *not* part of Dumbledore's plan.  He was sending Harry to get Snape (to stop the poison) when they heard footsteps on the stairs.  He shooed Invisible!Harry out of the way, Petrified him, and then was disarmed by Draco.  Dang, he didn't mean for it to go down like this.  


Matt:
> You also assume that the Order's 
> current lack of trust in Snape
> cannot be remedied. 

Eggplant:
That is correct, no conservable turn of events could make me forgive
Snape and a doubt Harry or any member of the Order would feel very
different

CathyD:
I can think of a couple of ways.  Only Order members can use their Patronus for communication.  While Harry wouldn't recognize Snape's patronus, McGonagall would.  A well placed, well worded, message from Snape arriving for McGonagall in her headmistresses office, with Dumbledore's portrait there to confirm what Snape is saying?  Snape, transfigured to look like Dumbledore appearing to Harry to give him one last memory...the memory of why Dumbledore so completely trusts Snape?  I'm sure others here can think of many more and much better.  It is very early after all.

Matt
> Suppose the request Dumbledore 
> made was simply "if it comes 
> down to killing me or breaking
> your vow (and dying yourself),
> I insist that you kill me." 

Eggplant:
What do you mean "if it comes down to that"? Once Snape made that
Unbreakable Vow it HAD to come down to that.

CathyD:
No, it did not.  Snape could have chosen death.  Snape completed the task on the tower because he was under Dumbledore's orders to do so.  Dumbledore was well aware of the types of things that may be required of Snape as he is posing as a DE.  He knew it at the end of GoF when he sent Snape back to Voldemort.  Snape knew it too: "'Severus, you know what I must ask you to do. If you are ready ... if you are prepared ...' 'I am,' said Snape.  He looked slightly paler than usual, and his cold, black eyes glittered strangely. 'Then, good luck.' said Dumbledore, and he watched, with a trace of apprehensionon his face, as Snape swept wordlessly after Sirius. It was several minutes before Dumbledore spoke again."  Snape made the decision to make the Unbreakable Vow with Narcissa (I believe he knew the task, having Legilimensed it from Narcissa's mind) as proof to not just Bella and Cissy (he could care less about their trust as he showed several times in Chapt 2) but to prove to LV that he could be trusted to the utmost degree.  Snape knows this will get back to LV.  He tells Dumbledore of the situation immediately, of course.  And Dumbledore and Snape both know that *if it comes down to it* and Draco can't do it, then to fulfill the Vow and remain under cover as a DE, Snape *must* complete the task.  Does Snape feel like a coward - murdering the man he trusted, and who trusted him, for so long?  The 'father figure' in Snape's life?  I wouldn't be surprised if that is why he was so angry when Harry called him coward.  Snape, himself, felt like a coward: he would rather have died than kill Dumbledore, the greatest wizard of all time.  

Matt
> He [Harry] does not say he 
> won't rest until Snape is dead. 

Eggplant:
>Does Harry really need to spell that out? If Harry kills Voldemort and
Snape still lives do you really imagine he will forget about Snape and
just play Quidditch and eat ice cream in Hogsmead? I don't think so.

CathyD:
First, I don't expect Snape to live to the end but that's another theory.  Snape is going to prove himself to be *Dumbledore's man, through and through* in book 7.  Whatever Dumbledore knows about why Snape truly redeemed himself from his role of Death Eater, we are going to find out, at some point.  Even if it is at the point where Snape dies while protecting Harry from LV.  

Matt:
> He says he won't rest until 
> *Voldemort* is dead, and if
> Snape gets in his way, so 
> much the worse for Snape. 

Eggplant:
>And Harry says he now hates Snape just as much as he hates Voldemort,
if Snape is really a good guy in disguise then Dumbledore's mysterious
plan was a disastrous flop guaranteed to lead to tragedy because one
of them is going to kill the other, it's only a matter of time.

CathyD:
Dumbledore's plan is not a flop at all.  As JKR has said, these two final books are two parts of a whole.  We haven't seen the end of this story yet.  I can't see the ultimate end as Harry killing Snape or vice versa.  To me that is quite a stretch.    

Snape protected Harry to the very end of HBP.  Not only that, he protected everyone of the Order (or good side) that he came into contact with during the Tower battle (apart from Dumbledore, my thought on that is above).  He Stupefied Flitwick but that is easily mended (Hermione could have done it if she had though to) and Snape never touched Hermione or Luna when he could have killed, easily, all three of them.  Snape ran through the battle to the top of the tower, never lifting a wand to anyone, nor did he on the way back down but shouted "It's over, it's time to go".  He was trying to get the DEs and Greyback out of the castle as quickly as he could...nor more damage than had already been done before he got there.  Snape could easily have killed any one or more of Tonks, Lupin (God knows he'd like to), McGonagall, Neville (he knows that would be easy enough), Ron or Ginny.  Yet he never touched any of them.  He stopped a DE using Crucio on Harry right at the bitter end, and did no more himself, than give him a good sharp, magical slap in the face (yes, I think it was Snape and not Buckbeak).  

Matt
> Maybe Harry has been further
> poisoned against Snape 

Eggplant:
>One of the great understatements of all time

CathyD:
Oh, but you underestimate Harry, Eggplant.  Harry, at some point in book 7 (gee, I wish she'd give us a name), is going to realize that Snape's AK was nothing like any other he had every witnessed (either in person on in his dream of Frank Bryce).  Just like many of us have realized it.  He's going to put his AK memories together in a Pensive (once he learns how to get out of one) and be able to *spot patterns and links*.  Dumbledore's "Strange how short-sighted being invisible can make you" certainly comes into play here.  If Harry were to drop the Tower scene memory into a Pensive, would he be able to hear the conversation that clearly went on between Dumbledore and Snape?   Only JKR knows for sure (any thoughts on this idea, Susan?).


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