Back to the cave and Dumbledore's screams

[Jen Reese]

No: HPFGUIDX 137595

> Merrylinks: Actually, the suggestion that Voldemort would make a 
> person see his own death was *your* idea, Jen! Check out Post 
> #135447. I think the idea is intriguing, but I want to be sure you 
> get the credit for it.

Jen: Argh, sorry Merrylinks, for putting theories in your mouth. ;) 
I re-read our posts. I didn't give you the right credit, because 
you're the one who pointed out that what DD experienced in the cave 
and what we see on the Astronomy Tower are very similar (thread 
starts here for anyone interested btw): 

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HPforGrownups/message/135371

> Merrylinks: 
> Yes. I believe that in the cave and on the Tower we are seeing the 
> same events, but from two different points of view. In a way it 
> reminds me of the Time-Turner sequences in POA, where, the first
> time it appears that Buckbeak has been executed and Sirius is in
> danger of death from the Dementors, and the second time, we know
> that Buckbeak is actually freed and Sirius survives. In the cave
> scenes we hear the internal conversation Dumbledore will be having
> inside his own head. On the Tower we are looking at the same
> events, but from a perspective that is external to Dumbledore.

Jen: Where we differ is, I don't think DD was seeing the future when 
he took the potion. 

I'm still of the mind that Dumbledore was having a boggart 
experience in the cave. We saw from Lupin's class that when faced 
with a boggart, a person doesn't see a specific series of events but 
has a more literal experience--a dementor, a spider, Snape, etc. DD 
would be a more complex person than his students at age 13, so his 
fears would be more complex. But he, too, would see literal fears: 
students being tortured or killed because of his own mistakes, DE's 
invading Hogwarts--more akin to what Molly sees, dead bodies of 
familiar people before her. But Dumbeldore wouldn't actually see the 
specific events on the Astronomy Tower because a boggart wouldn't 
show him a scene from the future. 

I do think when Dumbledore was on the Astronomy Tower, as his 
greatest fear played out before him, he was feeling increasingly 
desperate (much like we saw him in the cave). Knowing the DE's were 
at Hogwarts, hearing a student was dead, being unable to help any of 
the students because he is dying from the potion--in that moment he 
was probably thinking something similar to what we hear him say in 
the cave: "don't hurt them, don't hurt them, hurt me instead!" 

And then Severus walks in, and in that moment, DD realizes the 
solution to the problem --if Snape will 'kill' him, Snape can lead 
the DE's away from Hogwarts, save the students, take care of 
Draco. "KILL ME," he said in the cave; "Kill me now" he commands 
Snape nonverbally on the Tower.

It would just bother me to find out Dumbledore actually saw the 
future in the cave, and when it's playing out before him, he doesn't 
do anything to warn Harry that Snape can be trusted, that whatever 
might take place Harry must not believe only his eyes, but 
Dumbledore's words. Of course, if Snape is actually betraying DD on 
the Tower, if Dumbledore's pleading "Sevrus...please..." was 
actually a moment of truth about who Snape is, a betrayer, then that 
fits better with the potion showing the future. (Except the "Kill 
me" part. That only fits if DD is commanding Snape to kill him on 
the Tower.)

So I'm really thinking what Dumbeldore heard/saw in the cave was his 
greatest fear--a mistake of his leading to horrible events at 
Hogwarts, but not the specific scene on the Astonomy Tower. And I do 
think his greatest fear would include the invasion of Hogwarts. He's 
built Hogwarts into the sanctuary it is, for both people and 
creatures, and it's because of his devotion that he never wanted to 
leave his headmaster position (among other things, like not trusting 
politicians <g>).

Jen, fearing this is overly convoluted but she can't figure out a 
way to say everything and make it any clearer.