The best reason for Dumbledore to trust Snape (Lily?)

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 137935

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > <snip>
> > If Dumbledore merely "trusted Snape to be Snape" (to paraphrase 
> > Samuel L. Jackson in "Jackie Brown") then he's not really       
> > trusting Snape at all. 

> >>Valky:
> Yes Betsy, I agree with that. Which is why I am not actually saying
> that Dumbledores trust *hinges* on Snape being unable to avoid    
> falling prey to his own evil, but rather just that DD *doesn't     
> exclude* it. Yes I see that limits how much trust DD would have in 
> Sevvie.  To me, it limits DD to the point where he knows that     
> Snape will do as he feels is right, as anyone, and this will      
> include using Dark Magic or pecadillos to further himself towards 
> the perceived end, though DD would hope that he had managed to    
> advise and guide him sufficiently in the art of more selfless ways 
> to achieve ends.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Ahh.  Okay, I think I see where you're going with this.  And yes, 
Dumbledore would, I think, have a very clear understanding of 
Snape's character and so understand what Snape would be good at 
doing and bad at doing.  For the most part.  The Occlumency lessons 
in OotP is an example, I think, of Dumbledore expecting a bit too 
much out of Snape (and Harry as well).  But generally, I think 
Dumbledore had a pretty clear idea of what he could ask of his 
fellow Order members.

However, I do think Dumbledore had a pretty strong line drawn on 
what he would and would not find acceptable behaviour.  Physical 
abuse of students, for example, seems to be a pretty strong no-no in 
Dumbledore's book.  So if Snape started force feeding veritaserum to 
Harry I think Dumbledore would come down like a ton of bricks.  
Though I also suspect Dumbledore trusts Snape to *not* do such a 
thing.

> >>Valky:
> <snip>
> So there we see that Snapes choices reveal something more than the 
> pattern of duping himself,  carrying out nasty little             
> malefactions, and working for the bad guy if it suits his short   
> term purpose. Additionally it reveals, that he cannot contribute  
> to Evil in the end of the game. 

Betsy Hp:
I think Snape's actions in the Shrieking Shack in PoA back that 
thought up, as well.  If Snape was ever to use dark magic to 
overcome a foe Lupin and Sirius would have been a perfect 
opportunity.  I'm quite sure the Ministry would have forgiven 
anything used to subdue (or even kill) an escaped Death Eater and 
the werewolf who assisted him.  Especially when the two had student 
hostages, and especially since one of them was Harry Potter.  Since 
Snape was going on pure instinct (or certainly appeared to be) I 
think it's telling that he didn't come out shooting, as it were.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > And the evidence of the books points to Dumbledore trusting
> > Snape possibly above all other Order members, IMO. It looks like
> > Dumbledore shared the existence of the horcruxes with Snape.
> > <snip>

> >>Valky:
> I believe that this is probably less so. I doubt that DD *shared* 
> with Snape these secrets as in giving them. The chance is rather  
> more high that clever little Sevvie worked out a lot of what was  
> going on for himself. 
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I agree that Snape would have (or may have already) figured out 
about the horcruxes.  But the fact that Dumbledore not only decided 
Snape's knowing about them was a necessity, but that he limited that 
knowledge to *just* Snape suggests a large amount of trust to me.  
Because, yes, Snape is incredibly clever.  (As per his childhood 
school notes, I think he might be seen as a bit of a genius.)  But 
if Dumbledore didn't trust him completely, then I think he'd have 
kept Snape well out of everything, so that he'd have little 
knowledge to work with.

You brought up Tom in the portion I snipped.  I think he's a good 
example of Dumbledore keeping someone he distrusts *away* from 
things.  It could be argued that hiring Tom might have been a clever 
thing to do (keeping your enemies closer).  But Dumbledore, 
recognizing Tom's high intelligence obviously decided the risk to be 
too great.  (Plus, there were the children to think about.)  If 
Dumbledore didn't have a definite trust in Snape's overall goodness, 
I don't think he'd have brought him in on so many plans.  And I 
*really* doubt he'd have allowed him to be a teacher.  (Not all 
Order members are teachers after all.)

> >>Valky: 
> As for your question about canon evidence to Snapes maladies. The 
> Dark Arts addiction thing was I think well covered in HBP. It' not 
> such an addiction per se, than it is, I think, an intense         
> admiration for the sheer power of the Dark Arts. I think that this 
> is covered also well by Hermiones inference to Harry that Snape   
> sounded like him. The similarity is that Harry has a healthy      
> respect for how incrediby powerful Dark Arts are, while Snape in   
> the same way has respect for the superiority of this power, but it 
> is not quite as healthy.

Betsy Hp:
Hmmm.  I think I disagree here.  I think Hermione was dead on.  Both 
Harry and Snape recognize that to fight the dark arts you have to be 
flexible and innovative.  I don't recall anything that suggested 
that Snape's respect was somehow *unhealthy*. I was more under the 
impression that Harry just hated the idea of being anything like 
Snape (bringing home the irony of how much he related to the half-
blood Prince).

And it's Harry who starts throwing around Unforgivables when he gets 
really upset.  True, they tend to fail, but he won't always be 
protected by incompetence.  Or at least, that's a dangerous 
protection to rely on, IMO.  Snape, as I pointed out above, has not 
pulled out the Unforgivables even while under strong duress.  (Which 
is why his Unforgivable on the Tower came as such a shock, I think. 
Especially since Snape appeared so completely in control both before 
and after the killing.)  

> >>Valky:
> The canon for Snape behaving badly when left to his own devices,   
> are also written well into the series. Sevvie's behaviour towards 
> the Marauders it seems comes to a full head when the older DE     
> students, who are to some degree Sevvies companions while they are 
> there that much I am sure of, are no longer at Hogwarts.

Betsy Hp:
Are you suggesting that the Death Eaters in-training that Sirius 
listed off as Snape's companions *discouraged* Snape using or 
learning the dark arts?  Snape didn't attack James and Sirius, he 
attempted to defend himself (in an uneven fight, no less).  I don't 
think this was an example of Snape behaving badly at all.  I *do* 
however see a Harry-like tendency to turn to the dark arts when in a 
desperate situation in young Severus.  And perhaps that's why Snape 
counsels Harry against using dark magic in his final words in HBP.  
Perhaps he recognizes that they don't lead to a good place.

> >>Valky:
> When he rises through the Heirarchy of the DE and becomes a most  
> favoured servant of Voldemort, again he is at his own devices and 
> he gets himself in a stick there too.

Betsy Hp:
Are you talking the first time around, or the second?  Because I'm 
not sure if young Snape *was* a most favored servant the first time 
around.  I think he was seen as highly talented, but not necessarily 
most favored.

And the second time around, well, Snape would have *wanted* to 
become the most favored.  More privy to important secrets I would 
think.  And I don't see that his status within the Death Eater ranks 
now has injured him or the Order in any way.

> >>Valky:
> Finally in HBP, DD hands him the DADA job, which is in the sense  
> that I spoke of, setting him free to follow his natural path      
> without a guiding hand, and before he can even blink he's gotten  
> himself into trouble.

Betsy Hp:
What trouble?  The Unbreakable Vow?  That didn't really have 
anything to do with the DADA job did it?  Or, at least, it didn't 
have anything to do with Snape having some sort of addiction to the 
dark arts, IMO.  It *may* have been the manifestation of the curse 
on the job.  (In fact, I wonder if that thought ran through Snape's 
mind when he heard the final part of the Vow, "So this is how it 
will end," sort of thing.)

The question in regards to the Vow is *why* Snape entered into it in 
the first place.  I doubt it was because of an unhealthy eagerness 
to throw himself into some sort of dark magic.  (Personally, I think 
it was to give himself room to nudge Draco in the right direction.)

> >>Valky:
> The pattern is definitely there. The problem is stringing it      
> together in a coherent and believable fashion.

Betsy Hp:
I think there's definitely a pattern of Snape involving himself in 
the dark arts.  He was a Death Eater, after all.  However, I don't 
see anything pointing to an unhealthy addiction to or fascination 
with the dark arts.  At least, not in adult!Snape.

> >>Valky:
> <snip>
> This we do know, Snape was *trying* to get James expelled by going 
> to the Willow, but James saw through to something else as well and 
> saved him...
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
This is kind of an aside from our main discussion, but I'm leery of 
giving too pure a motive to James decision to interfer with Sirius's 
prank.  I somehow doubt that the James of Snape's Worst Memory would 
have been motivated by his interest in bringing out the good in 
Snape.  Rather, I think James realized that Sirius's prank would 
quite possibly end in murder, Sirius in Azkaban, Remus executed, and 
Dumbledore disgraced.  I think James didn't think Snape deserved to 
*die*, but I think he was probably also motivated by his love for 
both Sirius and Remus and Hogwarts itself.  Of course we won't know 
for certain until we see the prank play out, but JKR hasn't 
introduced a saint yet.  I doubt she'll start with Saint James.  
(All my opinion of course.)

Betsy Hp