The best reason for Dumbledore to trust Snape (Lily?)

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 137965




Betsy Hp replied to my post on DD trusting Snape:
<snip a few things>

Valky:
I think to the necessary point, we agree. Take into account DD's
prodigious skill and intellect, Snape's wit and genius, and the
differences and similarities between Tom, Snape and DD, we can
probably conclude that DD trusts Snape *because* he knows him well
enough.  
This is too much evidence for mine to be dismissing DD's trust in
Snape completely. And it does lend way to my thoughts regarding DD
being trusting that Snape would not entirely behave himself, but
essentially draws the line *before* the big E - for Evil. 
To wit, I think in most respects we agreed about this, and only minor
differences in the details remain between us. 
With that in mind, I also really want to restate that I am not sure I
understand the pattern of Snapes choices and what they reveal about
DD's trust in him exactly, going on a hunch and a feeling, I think it
relates to what the choices actually reveal Snape truly thinks of
James under all that denial. And I'll quote OOtP to show that I am
keeping to canon Dumbledore in this consideration.

[Harry says] 'It's OK for Snape to hate my dad, but it's not OK for
Sirius to hate Kreacher?'
'Sirius did not hate Kreacher,' said Dumbledore. ' He regarded him as
a servant unworthy of much interest or notice. Indifference and
neglect often do much more damage than outright dislike...' 

Here I see Dumbledore drawing out that the distinction is 'in the
regard'. That DD takes pains to describe the subtlety here, although
he is well aware that Sirius did hate being locked in the house too
and that hate was most certainly an issue for Sirius in regards to
Kreacher, well it just seems to me that DD is making a point about
this distinction for a reason. And that reason comes up because he is
having this compared to James and Snape for him by Harry. In DD's mind
he must be reminded of the distinction as it also pertains to James
and Snape. If you get my meaning and I am not thinking myself into a
corner you can't see here. Basically what I am saying is that DD
*knows* something about Snapes regard for James, he says it's *not*
the same thing as Sirius and Kreacher. BUT hang about, it does darn
well look like it is! Snape is *forever* telling Harry, Sirius and
James-memory how *unworthy* and of interest and notice they are. He
constantly saying to Harry 'get over it boy, you're nothing special,
you're less than nothing special actually, you're like your father!..
etc etc'  It sounds like the same thing, so why does DD say it's
different? It's all in the choices I'm sure.

Betsy Hp:
Hmmm. I think I disagree here. I think Hermione was dead on. Both
Harry and Snape recognize that to fight the dark arts you have to be
flexible and innovative. I don't recall anything that suggested
that Snape's respect was somehow *unhealthy*.

Valky:
???? What about the gruesome pictures on the wall clearly *glorifying*
this superior power? And what about JKR's comments that DD
deliberately keeps Snape from the Dark Arts to avoid 'bringing out the
worst in him' ? 
Yes I'll stick to my guns on this one, Snapes respect for the power is
*not* the same healthy respect that Harry has. 
On the whole, however,  it *is* respect. Oooh look at that, ------> 
it is *regard*. 


Besty Hp:
I was more under the
impression that Harry just hated the idea of being anything like
Snape (bringing home the irony of how much he related to the half-
blood Prince).

Valky:
That is a point unto it's own. I do love this irony. And especially
that Harry can barely muster up the same feelings towards the Prince
as he has for Snape even *after* he knows they are the one same person
that killed Dumbledore. It's soooo twisted. <eg> 
The mystery of Snape is and always has been about who he *really* is,
and this particular matter of Harry's internal friendship with the 
HBP is crucial to that.

You know, I have just thought of such an interesting point. I wonder
if I should bring it up here. Yeah I will. Remember in PS/SS
Hermione's now famous speech about Harry where she says.. 'Books! and
Cleverness! There are more important things . ...' I find it an
amusing parrallel to Snape's 'Book, and Cleverness', and from the
start we have been told despite all the HBP will surprise us with,
there are more important things. 

Those important things are of course Friendship and Bravery and Oh
Harry be *careful*... as we know. <eg> I think that Harry and the
Young HBP have a friendship, while Snape and Harry have a very
personal vendetta. These things havent really met up within Harry yet,
but I do wonder what will happen when they do.


Betsy Hp:
Are you suggesting that the Death Eaters in-training that Sirius
listed off as Snape's companions *discouraged* Snape using or
learning the dark arts? 

Valky:
No not at all. I am saying that the older students were the leaders so
Snape did mostly what they told him to do, which probably kept him
generally out of strife. It was after they all had left Hogwarts and
Snape was alone that he ventured out in the night after Lupin and
almost got himself killed. This is what I mean by the kind of trouble
Snape gets himself in left to his own devices. I am saying that DD
kept his little bird Snape in a "moral" prison, locked him up just
like Sirius and Harry and to anyone else he knew was in for certain
death if he didn't. Snape left to his own devices would simply get
himself killed. 

Besty Hp:
Snape didn't attack James and Sirius, he
attempted to defend himself (in an uneven fight, no less). I don't
think this was an example of Snape behaving badly at all.

Valky:
As you can see I wasnt actually referring to that kind of trouble, DD
I think was more inclined that Snape get himself in this trouble and
hopefully *learn* something from it. Leaving him alone otherwise will,
as I said, get him killed by his own evil.


Besty Hp:
I *do* however see a Harry-like tendency to turn to the dark arts when
in a
desperate situation in young Severus. And perhaps that's why Snape
counsels Harry against using dark magic in his final words in HBP.
Perhaps he recognizes that they don't lead to a good place.

Valky:
Yes I think that's a good point in itself. This is a lesson that Snape
can teach Harry. By this time I am sure Snape is becoming ever more
aware of the depths of hell he has gotten himself into through doing
the same.

Betsy Hp:
Are you talking the first time around, or the second? Because I'm
not sure if young Snape *was* a most favored servant the first time
around. I think he was seen as highly talented, but not necessarily
most favored.

Valky:
I am talking about the first time, and yes I do think Snape was close
enough to LV's favourite at this time, the point being that in any
case, he stopped giving Snape orders and sent him out to work under
almost his own volition as a spy. This is when Snape found himself
doing his worst again and taking the Prophecy back to Voldemort, the
one thing he really regrets according to DD.

> >>Valky:
> Finally in HBP, DD hands him the DADA job, which is in the sense
> that I spoke of, setting him free to follow his natural path
> without a guiding hand, and before he can even blink he's gotten
> himself into trouble.

Betsy Hp:
What trouble? The Unbreakable Vow? That didn't really have
anything to do with the DADA job did it? Or, at least, it didn't
have anything to do with Snape having some sort of addiction to the
dark arts, IMO. It *may* have been the manifestation of the curse
on the job. (In fact, I wonder if that thought ran through Snape's
mind when he heard the final part of the Vow, "So this is how it
will end," sort of thing.)

The question in regards to the Vow is *why* Snape entered into it in
the first place. I doubt it was because of an unhealthy eagerness
to throw himself into some sort of dark magic.


Valky:
Ok good arguments all, but this is how I see it to answer them. First
I think Snape had secured the DADA job before the Spinners End
Chapter, which you apparently agree with by saying that you think it
was the curse at work. So hereby we are seeing Snape the DADA teacher
in Spinners End, not Snape the potions master. 

Now I see that you disgree with me already that Snape was attracted to
the UV in an unhealthy way, but I do believe that there was definitely
an element of him being *tempted* into it by his having been free to
his own devices. For a start he *lies* outright to Narcissa that he
could be staying on at Hogwarts after being the DADA teacher, unless
Voldie *lifted* the curse for him ? It's certainly one way or the
other isn't it. And we must remember why the curse is there, it's
there because Voldie *wants* that position for himself. Dumbledore is
the *only* person keeping Voldie from the Dark Arts job. Anyone else
would have been brushed aside years ago and Voldie would be Headmaster
by now. This riddle is deeper than it first seems, Snape taking the
Unbreakable Vow strictly because the curse is at work on him has no
less a problem than Snape doing it because he was tempted into getting
involved in a battle of Dark Arts. 

Betsy Hp:
This is kind of an aside from our main discussion, but I'm leery of
giving too pure a motive to James decision to interfer with Sirius's
prank. I somehow doubt that the James of Snape's Worst Memory would
have been motivated by his interest in bringing out the good in
Snape. Rather, I think James realized that Sirius's prank would
quite possibly end in murder, Sirius in Azkaban, Remus executed, and
Dumbledore disgraced. I think James didn't think Snape deserved to
*die*, but I think he was probably also motivated by his love for
both Sirius and Remus and Hogwarts itself. Of course we won't know
for certain until we see the prank play out, but JKR hasn't
introduced a saint yet. I doubt she'll start with Saint James.
(All my opinion of course.)


Valky:
Arrrgh I can't believe you're dangling that carrot at me Betsy! <eg> 

You know how *I* am about James. 

I won't bite today.. I've already raved on enough..