[HPforGrownups] An almost plausible explanation for how the cave was found.

Sat Aug 20 09:15:37 UTC 2005

No: HPFGUIDX 138176

-----Original Message-----
From: saraquel_omphale <saraquel_omphale at yahoo.com>
To: HPforGrownups at yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, 20 Aug 2005 06:51:39 -0000
Subject: [HPforGrownups] An almost plausible explanation for how the cave was found.

Saraquel:
At last, I think I've come up with something almost plausible for 
how someone found the cave. It's still got gaping holes, but I think 
it holds together as well as the other theories currently available 
and I have found some canon support for it.  I said I'd be willing 
to drop Transfigured!Horcrux for a plausible explanation :-)

This theory could work for a Lucius/Regulus/Kreacher scenario.  But 
the "great wizard" needed to penetrate the cave defences would have 
to be Kreacher IMO, with his elf "powerful brand of magic"  (sorry 
can't give you chapter and verse on that quote ? can't remember 
where it comes in the books.) 
Cassie: The quote you are looking for is from GOF.  (US Ed. pg 687) when Barty Crouch says "She [Winky] used her own brand of magic to
bind me to her." at least, the phrase 'brand of magic' is there. 
Saraquel:
<snip>
GoF ch 36 p613
(Harry says) "I saw the Death Eaters! I can give you their names! 
Lucius Malfoy ?"
Snape made a sudden movement, but as Harry looked at him, Snape's 
eyes flew back to Fudge."

So what was it about Lucius in particular that got the wind up 
Snape?  Snape does not jump at Harry claiming he can name people.  
It is after Harry names Lucius that the reaction comes. Well now I 
think I might have an explanation.  We know that Voldemort gave 
Lucius the Diary before the GH incident, how long before we are not 
sure.  As far as I can remember there is no canon evidence directly 
supporting a friendship/relationship between Lucius and Snape, but 
Snape's immediate acceptance and favouritism towards Draco, and the 
fact that they were both DEs together would imply some sort of 
connection. 
Cassie:  
Actually, there *is* cannon evidence for a relationship between Lucius and Snape.  From OotP (US. pg. 
521) Sirius speaking. "Tell me, how is Lucius Malfoy these days? I expect he's delighted his lapdog's working at Hogwarts,
isn't he?"   
There is another quote in OotP that supports it as well: 
(US. pg. 745) Umbridge speaking: "I expected better, Lucius Malfoy always speaks most highly of you!"
I think there is an interesting correlation between these quotes.  It suggests that, no matter what you
may think of their relationship, that there is a give and take aspect to it.  I really do not
think that Lucius would bother saying good things to the Ministry about Snape just in the spirit
of friendship.  I can't imagine him thinking "I'll give my old buddy Severus a plug here!".  My theory is that
he went to give Snape a good name in the Ministry under Voldemort's orders.  It fits.  The Ministry
knew that Snape was/had been a DE.  Lucius clearly has (or..had) influence in the Ministry.  If he stood
on Snape's side, it would be more likely that when Voldemort did make his presence known that Snape could
remain on the 'good side'.   Or, at least there is some reason Lucius would help Snape save face. And Sirius'
comment suggests the two had a relationship before Voldemort fell.  But I can't really say
if they became "friends" before or after they knew each other as DEs. 
Saraquel: 
<snip>
Ok, now to examine the diary.  We have a seemingly blank book.  Now 
where have we seen blank bits of parchment that aren't blank at 
all?  Ones that reveal their secrets at the behest of a password or 
phrase.

An awful lot of ink came out of the diary when it was destroyed.
COS ch17 p237 "Ink spurted out of the diary in torrents, streaming 
over Harry's hands, flooding the floor <snip> Silence except for the 
steady drip drip of ink still oozing from the diary"

I have always wondered why so much ink came out, when the diary 
appeared to be blank. Yes it could have been all of Harry/Ginny's 
writing and Riddles replies, but there is a possibility that it also 
contained a written version of Tom Riddle's proof of why he is the 
Heir of Slytherin.

DD says to Harry in the Horcruxes chapter, 
HBP Ch23 p468 "But there could be no doubt that Riddle really wanted 
that diary read, wanted the piece of his soul to inhabit or possess 
somebody else, so that Slytherin's monster would be unleashed 
again."  "Well he didn't want his hard work to be wasted," said 
Harry. "He wanted people to know he was Slytherin's heir, because he 
couldn't take credit at the time." "Quite correct," said DD nodding."

Then on p472 DD says "The diary, as you have said yourself, was 
proof that he was the heir of Slytherin; I am sure that Voldemort 
considered it of stupendous importance."

In COS what Harry says is ch18 p242 "It was this diary, <snip> 
Riddle wrote it when he was 16." 

HBP p467 DD says to Harry
"The diary, Riddles's diary, the one giving instructions on how to 
reopen the Chamber of Secrets" 

What's puzzling me here, is that if Voldemort wanted the diary to be 
read, why were the words not visible?.  What does DD mean here?  It 
makes no sense for DD to, in one breath say the diary was to be 
read, and in the next phrase imply that it's purpose was for 
possession ? as a weapon.  Many of the references hear, imply words 
to be read.  I must admit to being confused about this vital bit of 
evidence for my theory. Herein, right at the heart of the theory, 
obviously lies one of the gaping holes mentioned above! But is there 
enough ambiguity to make a case? 
Cassie: 
Remember, the words may not have been written or stayed written, but they did appear.  Someone would
have to write in the diary for it (or Voldemort) to know someone was looking at it.    I think DD's saying it was
meant to be read and was used for possession makes perfect sense.  Consider your next line: 
Saraquel:

However, from COS, we know that Ginny suffered because she *wrote* 
in the diary and it replied to her.  That gradually over the course 
of time, Voldemort was able to possess Ginny because of her 
confiding in him.  Ginny was relating to the Soul fragment, rather
than reading the diary. 
Cassie: 
you also bring up the quote: "I understand that Voldemort had 
told him the diary would cause the Chamber of Secrets to reopen, 
because it was cleverly enchanted."  from HBP later on. 
Now, Lucius knew the book would cause the CoS to reopen.  I'm not sure if
he knew how.  He may have known the enchantment was a means to control someone to
get them to 'do the dirty work' and open the chamber, or he may have just wanted a Weasley
to be caught with a Dark object.   The Diary had be to be read and written in for possession to 
be possible.  
 Let's for argument's sake, say that 
Snape/Lucius did not write in the diary, but were able to read it, 
what would they have found out.    

Saraquel: 

Lucius/Snape works out how to read the diary, possibly by 
discovering the incantation that reveals the words (well if you 
think it's unlikely, the twins did it for the map). Or maybe at that 
time the words are there for all to read, and in order for Lucius to 
work his plan, he hides them (unlikely I think, but if it was 
Lucius, he had an object belonging to what he thought was a gone-for-
ever Voldemort which he thought he could use to further his own 
ends, he might have done it)  Whatever the scenario, on reading the 
diary, what does Lucius/Snape find out?

I think it would be in character for Voldemort, as part of his proof 
that he is the heir, to put in the whole history of his 
extraordinary powers, which would of course include his little trip 
to the cave with Benson and Bishop.  How at such a young age, he was 
so fantastically powerful, that he could manage to get himself and 
two children down an impossibly steep cliff and into a hidden cave 
etc etc. He probably didn't give a grid reference for the cave, but 
might have hinted that it was on a holiday ? the evidence that DD 
had.

So now, possibly,  we have information about the cave accessible to 
others.  
Cassie:  
I think you are making some pretty wide leaps here.  One, showing someone how he navigated the cave would not prove he was the HoS.  The measure of his power is no evidence for his ansestry.  He would've found a more clever wayto present evidence.  It was also said in HBP (can't remember where) that he researched his ansestry.  Surely he would have found evidence to connect himselfto Salazar Slytherin.  All he needed for that was proof he was the son of a Gaunt.  

Are you suggesting he wrote a kind of autobiography?  Remember, the diary also enabled
him to *show* people his memories.  And he could also make what he wanted to say appear on the pages.  Chances
are he could also alter those memories (in a far better way than Slughorn did his) to leave out information he wanted
to be kept secret.   Remember also that Riddle's memory used Ginny's "life force" to make himself real.   Here's where 'possesion as weapon'
comes in.  Since a Horcrux is used to keep LV alive, it would make sense to enchant the diary so that he could possess
someone to the point where he could totally drain them of life.  I do not think he would've done this if his present
day self was still alive.  I think it was a precautionary measure. 
So the reading of the diary was a means to open the Chamber of Secrets and prove he was Slytherin's heir and the
possesion part was a means to strengthen the soul fragment in the horcrux and enable to take on a real form. 
What I'm wondering now is...if Riddle did return has his 16 year old self and PD!(present day)LV managed to return
to his own body, what would have happened? 
Saraquel: 

Neither Snape nor Lucius it seems, suspected that the diary itself 
was a Horcrux. According to DD, "I understand that Voldemort had 
told him the diary would cause the Chamber of Secrets to reopen, 
because it was cleverly enchanted."  I suspect that the "I 
understand" implies that this information came from Snape, which if 
correct, is proof that Snape knew more about the diary than just 
that when it had been destroyed Voldemort was apoplectic.  

What is also Very Interesting is that Snape is *not* present at the 
denouement of COS, only DD, McGonegall and the Weasley family are 
there. (see the start of ch18) which means he was not party to any 
information which might have led him to realise that it was a 
Horcrux.  DD probably told McGonegall to keep her mouth shut, and 
the Weasly's wouldn't talk to Snape, and neither would they want to 
broadcast Ginny's error. This may well lead somewhere, but I have no 
time to investigate that at the moment.
Cassie: 
Just because we did not read about him being privy to any information about the diary does not mean Dumbledore
didn't talk to him about it at a later time.  No matter what he suspected about the diary, it seems reasonable that
he would use Snape to get information out of Lucius and would have had to give Snape information on the diary. (further proof of a relationship.  I don't think
Lucius would just blab about it to anyone.) .  Remember, "Dumbledore trusts Snape." 
Saraquel: 

If we take the line in GoF, much quoted recently, that implies that 
the death eaters knew about Voldemort making at least one Horcrux,  
we have a reason for an ESG!Snape, whose remorse knows no end, to 
hunt for the cave and a Horcrux. But beware, for if our gallant ESG!
Snape is the one to destroy the Locket, he very quickly becomes ESE!
Snape for accidentally forgetting to let DD in on the loop.  And 
would this not make Snape blanch at the thought that his whole cover 
might be blown by dear Lucius somehow, when he shows up at the 
rebirthing party.  Did Harry witness anything to connect Snape to 
Lucius, the Diary and hence the Cave and the Fake Locket lying where 
the Horcrux once was? 
Cassie: 
I do not think there is a connection between Snape and the fake locket and the cave.  I really don't see it. 
 Saraquel: 
<snip>If we have a Regulus who wants 
out, who uncharacteristically for a Slytherin, is concerned about 
others (is this the good Slytherin which the list has hunted for, 
and JKR has hinted exists :-)  ) 
Cassie: Well...there is Slughorn.  He may be overly ambitious and not think of other people's feelings at times, but he does seem to be one of the 
good guys. 

Saraquel: 
<snip>or perhaps, as I've suggested 
before Snape just wants a place to research the dark arts to his 
heart's content, and DD has denied it to him.
Cassie:
Ok.  I don't know about this 'Dumbledore denying Snape the opportunity to research the dark arts' business.  Snape could do what he pleases.  But openly 
researching the dark arts would look bad since he had 'reformed'.  Dumbledore did try to keep Snape away from the Dark Arts like he was trying to keep a former
junkie away from cocaine, but that doesn't tell us what Snape managed to do on his own time. 
 Saraquel: 
 Who know's why Snape 
might hate DD, but that it's possible has been revealed by the 
Lightening Struck Tower.  He now needs a fall guy to take the 
punishment that is obviously waiting in the cave, between him and 
the Horcrux.  And there is poor old Regulus, wanting out, gullible 
enough to believe Snape's tale of how he can earn himself 
redemption, by helping him with a little project.

I can believe that Snape was a great enough wizard to find his way 
round the defences, and that Regulus, did not have enough magical 
oomph to sink the boat. 
Cassie:  
It is possible that the characteristic Slytherin quest for ambition outweighs loyalty. The person who destroyed the Dark Lord would be seen as more powerful than
he was.  Snape could posess the kind of ambition that would lead to treachery.  I still don't agree with your theory though. Sorry. 

Saraquel: 
<snip>
Questions, questions, questions.  Well, I never promised answers to 
everything, just a vaguely plausible explanation for how someone 
could know about the cave. What do you think?

Cassie: 
My first question is: Why Snape?  I think you are trying too hard to fit Snape into the equation.  Are you suggesting that someone found out about the cave
from the diary? Earlier you suggested that Lucius was able to get information from the diary, and the cave story was part of it.  Wouldn't you think there would be a little note saying, 
"By the way...I'm a horcrux. Please don't let me be destroyed." ?  Then again, DD did think LV was being careless with that particular Horcrux.  

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