Slughorn makes me uneasy

[horridporrid03]

No: HPFGUIDX 138266

> >>Del:
> First off, Betsy, it seems that even though I did my best to dispel
> that possible misunderstanding, you still did misunderstand me :-) I
> was trying to convey that Slughorn was written AS a pedophile, in
> order to alert us to some possible dark secret about him. I
> specifically said that I don't think that Slughorn IS a pedophile,
> because this would be completely out of place in HP. But I think he
> might be AS a pedophile, seducing young victims in order to get
> something out of them, something not "normal" and hidden.

Betsy Hp:
No, I understood you completely and my entire response was couched in 
that vein.  I wasn't speaking at all about the validity of Slughorn 
being an *actual* pedophile, I was speaking of him as a 
representative of, just as you were.  

My view is that Slughorn is more representative of someone interested 
in talented young adults then a predator of children.  Fenrir, on the 
other hand, as an eater of young children (who then tries to take 
those children into his pack) is the more obvious pedophile stand-in, 
IMO.
 
> >>Del:
> We don't know at what age Slughorn starts courting his students. It
> seems that only the older students get invited at his parties, but
> that doesn't mean that Slughorn doesn't build relationships with
> younger students too.

Betsy Hp:
Oh, I'm sure Slughorn keeps his eye out for possible future members 
of his little club, and I'm sure he has his class favorites.  But 
from the parties we've seen, they're really adults only affairs.  The 
youngest are all upper-years on the cusp of adulthood themselves.

> >>Betsy Hp wrote:
> > In her livejournal, Threeoranges connected Slughorn with a       
> > possible real life person who "collected" talented young men at   
> > Oxford:

> >>Del:
> Interestingly enough, that person was gay, and being gay was an
> advantage to be admitted in his club. So I doubt that person had   
> only platonic relationships with all of his favourites.

Betsy Hp:
Possibly not (I honestly know nothing about Sligger but what was 
spoken of in that post) but these were college students we're talking 
about, so I see nothing wrong (certainly not on the level of 
pedophilia) with an affair or two.

Slughorn does court Harry.  And while I doubt JKR planned on anything 
sexual occuring, that was the vibe I picked up.  However, I saw 
nothing unhealthy or predatory or even unbalanced in Slughorn's 
interest. (Harry certainly didn't feel threatened.) Which is why I 
don't see him as a parallel for a pedophile.

> >>Del:
> <snip> 
> I see Slughorn as the long-time pedophile, the one who shares the  
> life of his victims, who has a public positive role in their lives 
> (parent, teacher, family friend, coach, etc...), and who takes     
> advantage of the trust the kids have come to put in him to slowly  
> get them where he wants them. As you said, he is a seducer, not an 
> attacker.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Maybe if he'd had a junior version of his Slug club, or if younger 
kids had been at his parties I could see the parallel.  But Slughorn 
is so adult oriented.  His party was adult heavy (it seemed alumni 
outnumbered students), his club is made up of upper-classmen.  I 
think Ginny is the youngest student in the club and she's certainly 
too old to draw a pedophile's interest I'd think.  Interestingly 
enough, it's *Harry* who gets Slughorn drunk and has his way with 
him.  Not the other way around.  And Slughorn never seemed to want to 
get any of the students alone.  He was taken aback when Tom stayed 
behind, and he wanted Harry to come to his *group* affairs.
 
> >>Betsy Hp:
> > For one, all of his former club members seem quite fond of him   
> > (even Snape in his own way)."

> >>Del:
> That's a surprising statement for me, because I never particularly 
> got that impression. Could you expand on it a bit, please?

Betsy Hp:
I'm assuming that his Christmas party was made up of Slug club 
members, and everyone at the party seemed to be having a grand time.  
And people were sending him gifts and autographed pictures, so I'm 
thinking he was well liked.  As to Snape, well he attended the party 
and he didn't kill Slughorn for throwing an arm around him so in 
Snape-speak, Slughorn's a bud. <g>

> >>Del:
> Moreover, that doesn't mean anything where pedophilic seducers are
> concerned. Most of their victims usually enjoy their company to some
> degree.

Betsy Hp:
But aren't the victims of pedophiles by definition, children?  That's 
a huge reason that I don't think the parallel works.  Because (unlike 
Fenrir) Slughorn *isn't* all that interested in children.  Plus, 
Slughorn seems more interested in what his students can do for him 
when they become well connected adults in the WW.

> >>Del:
> <snip>
> As I said, I don't believe that Slughorn is a pedophile per se, I  
> believe he's a metaphor for a pedophile. I believe that JKR wants  
> to warn us that his interest in people is not completely healthy,  
> that there's something hidden somewhere. And because this is the   
> Potterverse, I would think that this something would be related to 
> magic, not to sex.

Betsy Hp:
I could see a sexual parallel but *not* with pedophilia.  Harry is 
certainly not a prepubescent boy.  He's on the cusp of manhood and 
for the first time he's being overtly persued sexually (Romilda 
Vane).  I could definitely buy a subversive reading of Slughorn being 
interested in Harry because he's a handsome young man.  And I could 
buy that when Harry goes after the horcrux memory he tries to play on 
that attraction (with the Felix potion juicing up Harry's mojo).

And I think the dark side of such weaknesses are shown when Slughorn 
gives Tom the horcrux information.  So I do think JKR is pointing out 
the weaknesses in Slughorn's approach to things.  But I don't think 
she's taking him to such a dark place as would fit the pedophile 
parallel.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > Slughorn seems fond of Snape and I think he'd be just as eager for
> > young!Snape to slip from Voldemort's grasp as Dumbledore was.

> >>Del:
> That would imply that Slughorn knew about Snape being a DE. But we
> still don't know who knew that and who didn't. It doesn't seem to  
> have been widely known.

Betsy Hp:
Well, yeah.  And we certainly don't know everything that occured at 
this time period.  I was just saying that I don't think there's 
anything that speaks to Slughorn being a Death Eater sympathizer.  I 
think he's much more on Dumbledore's side.

> >>Del:
> <snip> 
> Moreover, I'm not convinced that LV would want to send his spy to  
> work at a job that he knew was cursed. LV had no way of knowing how 
> much longer the war would last, so why would he risk losing his spy 
> after only one year of spying?

Betsy Hp:
Maybe Voldemort *did* think the war would only last one more year.  
He was winning at the time. There's no reason to think Voldemort was 
thinking long term.  Perhaps Snape was supposed to provide an entry 
point or something.  Of course this all pure guess work, so your view 
is a good as mine. <g>

> >>Del:
> <snip>
> If Slughorn is not an idiot, how can he believe that Harry is a    
> natural at Potions when he knows that:
> 1) Harry did not get an O at his Potions OWL,
> 2) Harry was never excellent under Snape? 
> Moreover, when Slughorn becomes slightly inebriated at the Christmas
> party, he *does* start comparing Harry and Snape. Not a smart move 
> at all.

Betsy Hp:
1) Maybe he figured Harry choked a bit on the test.  He still swung 
an E.
2) Does Slughorn know what kind of student Harry was under Snape?  I 
was under the impression that the Christmas party was the first time 
Snape and Slughorn really spoke about Harry. 
3) I really don't think Slughorn knew of the animosity between the 
two. Plus, he *was* a bit tipsy at the time.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > And I'm betting James wasn't invited.
> > <snip>

> >>Del:
> I disagree. James was a pureblood,

Betsy Hp:
Yeah, but not *that* well known a pureblood.  He wasn't of Black 
caliber, IOW.  (Or at least the Potters have never been spoken of as 
that sort of family.)

> >>Del:
> his parents were rich,

Betsy Hp:
Slughorn isn't interested in mere money.  He wants connections and 
interesting talents.

> >>Del:
> he was a Quidditch star,

Betsy Hp:
Not enough of one.  I don't recall that he was recruited by various 
quidditch teams.  And being the beloved school jock doesn't seem to 
be enough for Slughorn.

> >>Del:
> he was a ringleader,

Betsy Hp:
Of a merry band of pranksters.  I don't think that was Slughorn's 
style.  

> >>Del:
> he was extremely popular, he was extremely smart, 

Betsy Hp:
He was popular and smart, but at a school level.  Slughorn seems to 
look beyond school talents for a promising WW career.  I bet James 
could have pulled Hermione caliber grades if he hadn't spent so much 
energy pranking, but it doesn't sound like he did.

> >>Del:
> he became Head Boy,

Betsy Hp:
After a major personal turn around that seems to have surprised 
everyone and occured only in his sixth year. 

> >>Del:
> and so forth and so on. If anyone should have been invited into the 
> Slug Club, it was James Potter IMO. But either he wasn't, or he    
> refused. In either case, my question is: why? And no, I don't think 
> that the fact that Slughorn was Head of Slytherin was a good enough 
> reason, neither for Sirius nor for James.
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
I disagree.  Sirius had a real block when it came to Slytherin.  If 
James was invited (and he may have been - I'm arguing he might not 
have, but I don't pretend I know for sure) he may have backed out for 
Sirius's sake.

I'm pretty positive Snape was a member and that could have been 
enough to keep James out as well. (Though do we know for sure that 
James *wasn't* a Slug club member?  Slughorn may just have liked Lily 
a bit better.)

> >>Del:
> I personally wouldn't put Slughorn on the level of DD. And in both
> their cases, I do wonder *how* they got to learn about horcruxes.  
> This subject isn't discussed in any of the Hogwarts library books...
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
Well no, but Hogwarts isn't the fount of *all* wizarding knowledge.  
Both Dumbledore and Slughorn are of an age.  They've been around 
about the same amount of time so they've both had opportunity to 
explore various areas of knowledge.  And they both strike me as 
curious, so it's not a stretch for me to see either of them 
researching various areas of dark magic.  The knowledge itself isn't 
enough to tip Slughorn into the ESE camp for me.  Especially when he 
seemed to find horcruxes quite repulsive.

> >>Betsy Hp:
> > Because he was ashamed.  Slughorn got played and in doing so he
> > inadvertantly gave Tom the information he needed to become Lord
> > Voldemort.  I'm sure that realization has haunted him and that's 
> > why he's been so reluctant to share that information with        
> > anybody.

> >>Del:
> Do you realise the level of moral cowardice that this scenario would
> necessitate?? Lupin got pounded pretty harshly by some readers for
> forgetting to mention for a year that Sirius was an Animagus, but
> Slughorn forgot to mention *for 50 years* that LV had shown an
> interest in horcruxes!? That's criminal withholding of crucial
> information, that's what it is!

Betsy Hp:
I don't see it that way at all.  Voldemort, in all his creeping 
glory, doesn't return until eleven years before Harry's birth, IIRC.  
And he's fairly quiet for a while.  He raises up, battles ensue and 
then he's suddenly killed.  Slughorn *was* a coward, but I think 
you're putting too much into his lap.  (Slughorn certainly wasn't the 
only wizard to connect Voldemort to Tom Riddle.  Only Dumbledore was 
brave enough to openly speak of it.)
 
> >>Betsy Hp:
> > What I wonder is how Dumbledore knew Slughorn was hiding          
> > something. 
> > <snip>

> >>Del:
> Legilimency?

Betsy Hp:
So Dumbledore just ran around randomly legilimencing various wizards 
until something popped out at him?  Something led him to Slughorn, I 
think.

> >>Del:
> Slughorn kept it a secret for 50 years that LV was once Tom Riddle,
> and only one of the two greatest Legilimenses alive seems to have
> discovered that he once told LV about horcruxes. I'd say he's good 
> at keeping secrets indeed.

Betsy Hp:
Oh, a heck of a lot of wizards could connect Tom to Voldemort.  They 
chose not to do so.  That's why so many refused, or were reluctant, 
to talk to Dumbledore about Tom Riddle.

> >>Del:
> 1) RL seducing pedophiles are often pretty obvious in their liking 
> of their victims. 
> <snip>

Betsy Hp:
At this point I think Harry is too old to be considered fodder for a 
pedophile.  I can see Pippin's argument regarding Lupin and the candy 
because Harry was a child at the time.  But Harry is almost a man by 
the time he and Slughorn meet. (I'm assuming Harry is the stand-in 
for Slughorn's victim?)

> >>Del: 
> 2) I did say that Slughorn is not a pedophile. I said that JKR wrote
> him AS a possible pedophile, to raise suspicion IMO. I think she's
> trying to say: "Caution! Slughorn's liking of some students is not 
> as innocent as it looks, it's hiding something darker, some kind of 
> Dark Magic or something."

Betsy Hp:
I *can* see a darker side to Slughorn's interest in Harry.  There can 
be a predatory feel to it.  (He's a "collecter" after all.) And I 
think JKR illustrates the danger (and the power) such an interest can 
bring. But I don't think it parallels to pedophilia.  Honestly, I 
think Fenrir has that covered.

Betsy Hp, who's up a bit past her bed time and hopes this all made 
some sort of sense