Slughorn makes me uneasy

[delwynmarch]

No: HPFGUIDX 138242

First off, Betsy, it seems that even though I did my best to dispel
that possible misunderstanding, you still did misunderstand me :-) I
was trying to convey that Slughorn was written AS a pedophile, in
order to alert us to some possible dark secret about him. I
specifically said that I don't think that Slughorn IS a pedophile,
because this would be completely out of place in HP. But I think he
might be AS a pedophile, seducing young victims in order to get
something out of them, something not "normal" and hidden.

Betsy Hp wrote:
"I picked up a certain vibe myself, though I didn't connect it with
pedophilia.  For one, Harry is hardly a young child, nor are the
students and former students Slughorn surrounds himself with."

Del replies:
We don't know at what age Slughorn starts courting his students. It
seems that only the older students get invited at his parties, but
that doesn't mean that Slughorn doesn't build relationships with
younger students too.

Betsy Hp wrote:
"In her livejournal, Threeoranges connected Slughorn with a possible
real life person who "collected" talented young men at Oxford:"

Del replies:
Interestingly enough, that person was gay, and being gay was an
advantage to be admitted in his club. So I doubt that person had only
platonic relationships with all of his favourites.

Betsy Hp wrote:
"Personally, I think Fenrir is the obvious pedophile parallel.  
Slughorn is something a bit different. "

Del replies:
Greyback is the serial sexual predator, who attacks kids he barely
knows only once and often kills them. He's the stranger in the night
who takes advantage of the little girl walking home alone or the
little boy whose window has been left open for the night.

I see Slughorn as the long-time pedophile, the one who shares the life
of his victims, who has a public positive role in their lives (parent,
teacher, family friend, coach, etc...), and who takes advantage of the
trust the kids have come to put in him to slowly get them where he
wants them. As you said, he is a seducer, not an attacker.

It's 2 different types, but both are dangerous.

Betsy Hp wrote:
"For one, all of his former club members seem quite fond of him (even
Snape in his own way)."

Del replies:
That's a surprising statement for me, because I never particularly got
that impression. Could you expand on it a bit, please?

Moreover, that doesn't mean anything where pedophilic seducers are
concerned. Most of their victims usually enjoy their company to some
degree.

Betsy Hp wrote:
"I didn't get the sense that any sort of "bad things" occured."

Del replies:
Well, the problem is that I don't know *what kind* of bad things are
supposed to be happening :-) As I said, I don't believe that Slughorn
is a pedophile per se, I believe he's a metaphor for a pedophile. I
believe that JKR wants to warn us that his interest in people is not
completely healthy, that there's something hidden somewhere. And
because this is the Potterverse, I would think that this something
would be related to magic, not to sex.

Betsy Hp:
"Slughorn seems fond of Snape and I think he'd be just as eager for
young!Snape to slip from Voldemort's grasp as Dumbledore was."

Del replies:
That would imply that Slughorn knew about Snape being a DE. But we
still don't know who knew that and who didn't. It doesn't seem to have
been widely known.

Betsy Hp wrote:
"I don't think Voldemort had anything to do with it because I think
Voldemort wanted Snape to take the DADA position."

Del replies:
Yes, but apparently Snape failed to do that when he was found
eavesdropping on Trelawney. So it is possible that DD found someone
else for the DADA job before LV sent Snape back to DD.

Moreover, I'm not convinced that LV would want to send his spy to work
at a job that he knew was cursed. LV had no way of knowing how much
longer the war would last, so why would he risk losing his spy after
only one year of spying?

Betsy Hp wrote:
"Slughorn isn't an idiot."

Del replies:
I'm not so sure about that. If Slughorn is not an idiot, how can he
believe that Harry is a natural at Potions when he knows that:
1) Harry did not get an O at his Potions OWL,
2) Harry was never excellent under Snape?

Moreover, when Slughorn becomes slightly inebriated at the Christmas
party, he *does* start comparing Harry and Snape. Not a smart move at all.

Betsy Hp wrote:
"And I'm betting James wasn't invited.  He wasn't *that* well related.
 (Has anyone talked about the amazing Potter line?)  And I'm not sure
he shined *that* well academically (not Hermione's level).  Probably
too busy pranking and such.  Not in Slughorn's taste, I think."

Del replies:
I disagree. James was a pureblood, his parents were rich, he was a
Quidditch star, he was a ringleader, he was extremely popular, he was
extremely smart, he became Head Boy, and so forth and so on. If anyone
should have been invited into the Slug Club, it was James Potter IMO.
But either he wasn't, or he refused. In either case, my question is:
why? And no, I don't think that the fact that Slughorn was Head of
Slytherin was a good enough reason, neither for Sirius nor for James.
OTOH, if Malfoy's gang and Snape were members of the Slug Club, then I
guess that could explain why James and Sirius refused to join it. But
I'd love to have a confirmation that this was indeed the reason.

Betsy Hp wrote:
"Slughorn is a talented and well-learned professor.  I'm not surprised
at all that he knew what a horcrux was.  (Dumbledore does, after all.)"

Del replies:
I personally wouldn't put Slughorn on the level of DD. And in both
their cases, I do wonder *how* they got to learn about horcruxes. This
subject isn't discussed in any of the Hogwarts library books, and I
doubt it is a subject that wizards discuss casually. IMO, it is a
subject that has to be *researched*: look for the people who could
know about it, get the info from them, and so on. We know that DD knew
a lot of Dark Magic, even if he chose not to use it. But then, DD was
the vanquisher of Grindelwald, so it makes sense that he would have
studied the Dark Arts. But why would Slughorn have studied them too?
He was just a Hogwarts teacher, it's very obvious that he was never a
fighter and that he always tried to remain in his comfort zone. So how
did he get to learn about horcruxes?

Betsy Hp wrote:
"Because he was ashamed.  Slughorn got played and in doing so he
inadvertantly gave Tom the information he needed to become Lord
Voldemort.  I'm sure that realization has haunted him and that's why
he's been so reluctant to share that information with anybody."

Del replies:
Do you realise the level of moral cowardice that this scenario would
necessitate?? Lupin got pounded pretty harshly by some readers for
forgetting to mention for a year that Sirius was an Animagus, but
Slughorn forgot to mention *for 50 years* that LV had shown an
interest in horcruxes!? That's criminal withholding of crucial
information, that's what it is!

Betsy Hp wrote:
"What I wonder is how Dumbledore knew Slughorn was hiding something. 
Did Slughorn exhibit a strange amount of guilt whenever Voldemort was
spoken of?  Something *must* have slipped for Dumbledore to think of
looking to Slughorn for the information, and I wonder what that slip was."

Del replies:
Legilimency?

Betsy Hp wrote:
"Honestly, I don't think Slughorn's all that great of a secret keeper.
 It's not that Dumbledore didn't know Slughorn had the information he
needed, it's that Slughorn refused to give Dumbledore the details."

Del replies:
Slughorn kept it a secret for 50 years that LV was once Tom Riddle,
and only one of the two greatest Legilimenses alive seems to have
discovered that he once told LV about horcruxes. I'd say he's good at
keeping secrets indeed.

Betsy Hp wrote:
"That's another reason I think the pedophile charge doesn't suit
Slughorn.  He didn't keep his interest in Harry at all a secret
(something I'd imagine a pedophile would really need to do).  He was
very obvious about who he liked, he was very obvious about when his
parties would occur, and I'm sure if Dumbledore had wanted to attend
he'd have been gladly welcomed (more prestige for the party).
 
Slughorn *is* an elitist and certainly a hedonist, but I don't think 
he's a pedophile."

Del replies:

Two things.

1) RL seducing pedophiles are often pretty obvious in their liking of
their victims. The teacher's pet, the coach's favourite, the favourite
niece or grandson, all those are completely in-the-face and yet nobody
ever suspects anything, because all the clues point to the adult truly
liking or loving the kid. In fact, this very public display of
preference is an integral part of the seducing maneuver: it makes the
kid feel special and appreciated, which in turn makes him willing to
return the adult's "affection".

2) I did say that Slughorn is not a pedophile. I said that JKR wrote
him AS a possible pedophile, to raise suspicion IMO. I think she's
trying to say: "Caution! Slughorn's liking of some students is not as
innocent as it looks, it's hiding something darker, some kind of Dark
Magic or something."

Del