[HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's master plan

[Lawrence Carlin]

No: HPFGUIDX 138393

--- Kathryn Jones <kjones at telus.net> wrote:

> 
> > Larry now:
> > Dumbledore states clearly that to kill, to take a
> life
> > unjustifiably, forever splits the soul; damaging
> or
> > destroying it irrepairably and irretrievably. I
> cannot
> > understand how we can have gotten to know
> Dumbledore
> > as we have and believe for a second that he would
> > sacrifice a human soul for any reason. Let alone
> for
> > so craven a thing as the placement of a spy.
>    Larry
> 
> Kathy writes:
>     I believe that it is more to him than just
> placing a spy. I think it 
> is his last gamble to set things up for the final
> conflict. Dumbledore's 
> only goal is finishing Voldemort. For that, he is
> willing to risk 
> everything.
> KJ

Larry now:

"Last gamble..." Wow is that different, or for that
matter more justifiable than the placing of a spy?

"Risk everything..." Seems a euphamism for do
anything. See posts138237 and 138321. Dumbledore is
not a Dark Lord, rolling the dice with the souls of
others.

 
> > Dumbledore has also said that Voldemort trusts no
> one,
> > there is no inner circle. Voldemort is the only
> chess
> > master here, it is his utterly ruthless
> willingness to
> > sacrifice any one or anything to get what he wants
> > that marks him as the Dark Lord. For Dumbledore to
> > sacrifice a soul, any soul, would be to have him
> use
> > the means of the enemy, putting him on the road to
> > becoming the enemy.
>    Larry
> 
> Kathy writes:
> 
>       While you are probably correct in your
> estimation, there are a few 
> items I would like to discuss. Do we really "know"
> Dumbledore?
>       Dumbledore speaks of a plan involving Harry
> and feels intense 
> sorrow about risking Harry's life and alternatively
> risking the lives of 
> hundreds or thousands of others.He has forced
> himself to stop protecting 
> Harry from his "destiny", and is pushing the master
> plan forward.



Larry now:

Anyone of good conscience would feel guilt and sorrow
by asking others to place themselves in danger. You
seem below to be making a case that Dumbledore is not
so "nice", what ever that means. But aren't his pangs
of conscience proof of goodness? Voldemort feels no
such thing for those he places in danger.

What master plan? Read original post again, 138106,
and see below.


>       Dumbledore has sent Lupin, who is not a strong
> person 
> psychologically or apparently physically, from the
> description of him, 
> to live with a pack of werewolves, where he must
> change along with them, 
>   without benefit of the Wolfsbane, possibly risking
> the lives of 
> innocent people.


Larry now:

Maybe some can correct me here, but Lupin's physical
weakness stems from his use of the potion. The other
werewolf we have seen, Fenrir Greyback, does not seem
lacking in vigor. Without the potion, I see no reason
for Lupin being unqualified for the job.

As for psychological weakness, I just don't see it.
Indecision and an unwillingness to control others is
not weakness. 


>       Dumbledore sent Snape back to Voldemort,
> expecting that he might 
> have a hard time convincing Voldemort that he had
> been loyal all those 
> years. Dumbledore, at least, had the decency to look
> worried when he did it.
>       Dumbledore had no problem in allowing Hagrid
> to be sent to Azkaban 
> for a short sabbatical.


Larry now:

Snape never claimed to be loyal to Voldemort during
the entire term of Voldemort's bodiless existence.
Snape tells Bellatrix he thought Voldemort finished,
HBP Am. ed. P. 26. He, along with other DE's never
tried to find Voldemort, thought briefly that Harry
was a standard they could rally around, etc. None of
this speaks of an undying loyalty.

In any case, Dumbledore knew of the various
explainations Snape would give Voldemort, and knew
them to be reasonable, hence the risk to Snape was
also reasonable.

Dumbledore could not overrule the MoM, and had no say
in whether Hagred was sent to Azkaban.



>       Dumbledore is 150 years old. He has been
> looking at the long-term 
> picture for a third of his life. He has already made
> great changes to 
> his own life in his fight against Voldemort. He has
> already sacrificed 
> much. I believe that Dumbledore *would* ask Snape to
> make the sacrifice 
> of risking his soul, although I believe that JKR
> described a 
> cold-blooded, deliberate killing was necessary to
> damage the soul. 
> Obviously the risk has been minimized


Larry now:

Please re-read the original post, and see posts
138106, 138232, 138262, 138321. Dumbledore would never
use the means of the enemy to defeat the enemy, I've
seen nothing here to suggest an inkleing otherwise.


. Dumbledore
> would also be willing 
> to ask the supreme sacrifice of both Snape and
> Harry. 


Larry now:

Do you mean by supreme sacrifice the sacrifice merely
of one's life, or one's very soul? A commander would
expect the former as a matter of war, but only an
unrepentantly evil, by any means necessary Voldemort
type would accept the later.


He has simply 
> avoided the guilt by making his sacrifice to the
> cause first. Wily old 
> bird! Dumbledore doesn't trust anyone either. He was
> always the only one 
> holding all the cards. He only shows the ones he
> wants the others to 
> see. I see this as his biggest mistake. From OotP on
> Dumbledore has been 
> changing from "peacetime" Dumbledore to "at war"
> Dumbledore and I find 
> him not so nice and kind as before.
> KJ


Larry now:

What you take for lack of trust is really evidence
that there is no master plan. Dumbledore was merely
fighting a holding action, buying time until Harry was
ready to do what only Harry could do.

There is not the slightest shred of evidence that
Dumbledore was orchestrating some procession to final
victory. In fact, the section of The Prephecy that
implies Harry is the one how can defeat the Dark Lord
is never contradicted by Dumbledore. Dumbledore never
claims victory is inevitable: just because Harry can
defeat the Dark Lord doesn't mean he will.

I have no sense that Dumbledore planned a series of
enveloping moves, leading to inevitable check mate. He
was training his warrior, and when that training was
complete would send him out to combat and hope for the
best. HBP Am. ed. P.197-198:
"Sir," said Harry tentativly, "does what you're going
to tell me have anything to do with the prophecy? Will
it help me...survive?"

"It has a very great deal to do with the prophecy,"
said Dumbledore, as casually as if Harry had asked him
about the next day's weather, "and I certainly hope
that it will help you to survive."

Larry


		
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page 
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs