[HPforGrownups] Re: Dumbledore's master plan

Tue Aug 23 13:44:55 UTC 2005

No: HPFGUIDX 138527

--- Kathryn Jones <kjones at telus.net> wrote:

> 
> > Larry now:
> > 
> > "Last gamble..." Wow is that different, or for
> that
> > matter more justifiable than the placing of a spy?
> > 
> > "Risk everything..." Seems a euphamism for do
> > anything. See posts138237 and 138321. Dumbledore
> is
> > not a Dark Lord, rolling the dice with the souls
> of
> > others.
>    Larry
> 
> Kathy writes:
>      "And yet, knowing how important it was that *my
> plan* should
> succeed, I told myself that I would not permit this
> flaw to ruin it."
> and another
>      "I care more for your happiness than your
> knowing the truth, more
> for your peace of mind than *my plan*, more for your
> life than the lives
> that might be lost if the *plan* failed".
> and another
>      "What did I care if numbers of nameless and
> faceless people and
> creatures were slaughtered in the vague future, if
> in the here and now,
> you were alive, and well, and happy.
> 
> To my way of thinking, he is rolling a few souls
> here. Plus talking 
> Flamels into destroying the stone so V can't get it,
> causing their 
> deaths. I am not saying that Dumbledore is evil,
> just dedicated to a 
> purpose. Really dedicated. Still dedicated.
> KJ

Larry now:

See below; I'll stand by my original post. I never
said Dumbledore had no plan. In fact, I state what I
think his plan was. His plan was to fight a holding
action until Harry knew what he needed to know to do
what only Harry could do. I see nothing in your quotes
that even hint otherwise.

Risking life, limb or pain is not risking a soul. I
thought all to posts were clear enough. Mere death
does not risk a soul, it is inevitable and really "the
next great adventure." How exactly is asking someone
to risk the next great adventure putting their soul in
jeopardy? The posts and canon are clear, it is murder
that splits the soul, irrepairably damaging the soul.
Again, it is the differance between a Dumbledore and a
Voldemort in that Dumbledore would never ask of one
that they risk their soul, and Voldemort would not
hesitate.

As for Flamel, they had "a little chat," and Flamel
agreed that it was high time for the next great
adventure. Are you suggesting Dumbledore murdered
these people? "Cause" seems such an imprecise term. He
allowed them to find the correct path on their own, I
see nothing wrong here.

> > Larry now:
> > 
> > Anyone of good conscience would feel guilt and
> sorrow
> > by asking others to place themselves in danger.
> You
> > seem below to be making a case that Dumbledore is
> not
> > so "nice", what ever that means. But aren't his
> pangs
> > of conscience proof of goodness? Voldemort feels
> no
> > such thing for those he places in danger.
>    Larry
> 
> Kathy writes:
>     What is worse, to feel guilt and sorrow and do
> it anyway, or not
> have a clue that you are doing anything bad?
> KJ

Larry now:

Allow me a WWII analogy. Prime Minister Churchill who
spoke many times of the pain he suffered sending young
men to their deaths. Or take his opposite number, who
suffered no such qualms for any of his actions, many
of which went far beyond this. I'll leave the readers
to decide on which is worse. 

> > Larry
> > What master plan? Read original post again,
> 138106,
> > and see below.
>    Larry
> 
> Kathy writes:
>     See first point above.
> 
> 
> > Larry now: 
> > Maybe some can correct me here, but Lupin's
> physical
> > weakness stems from his use of the potion. The
> other
> > werewolf we have seen, Fenrir Greyback, does not
> seem
> > lacking in vigor. Without the potion, I see no
> reason
> > for Lupin being unqualified for the job.
>    Larry
> 
> Kathy writes:
>     Pg312 HBP
>   "But I do not forget that during the year I taught
> at Hogwarts, 
> Severus made the Wolfsbane Potion for me every
> month, made it perfectly, 
> so that I did not have to *suffer* as I usually do
> at the full moon".
> and another
> "He kept me healthy."
> and another
> Pg 309 HBP
> Meanwhile Remus Lupin, who was thinner and more
> ragged-looking than ever....
> KJ

Larry now:

Your first two quotes help prove my point. He
"suffered" at the full moon. What did the potion do?,
it prevented the change, making Lupin "healthy." The
potion may have had side effects, we do not know, but
in any case, we have seen two werewolves up close,
Lupin and Greyback, one appears healthy and one does
not. One views his condition as a ravaging enemy, one
does not. It seems that the condition itself is not
weakening at all. In fact, Lupin's appearance may stem
from his struggle against his condition, evidence of
psycholoical strength. And let us not forget Bill, who
may exhibit "wolfish characteristics" from time. I'm
not clear on what those characteristics would be, but
weakness doesn't seem to me at least to be in the
cards.

> > Larry now:
> 
> > In any case, Dumbledore knew of the various
> > explainations Snape would give Voldemort, and knew
> > them to be reasonable, hence the risk to Snape was
> > also reasonable.
>    Larry
> 
> Kathy writes:
>    A little Crucio never hurt anyone. You any
> relation to Dumbledore?

Larry now:

Crucio, really? I must have missed that. "Initial
displeasure" HBP Am. ed. P. 28-29, is not an
unforgivable. Voldemort was initially displeased with
all his returning DE. How many returned, how many had
Crucio inflicted on them? 

> > Larry now:
> > 
> > What you take for lack of trust is really evidence
> > that there is no master plan. Dumbledore was
> merely
> > fighting a holding action, buying time until Harry
> was
> > ready to do what only Harry could do.
> > 
> > There is not the slightest shred of evidence that
> > Dumbledore was orchestrating some procession to
> final
> > victory. In fact, the section of The Prephecy that
> > implies Harry is the one how can defeat the Dark
> Lord
> > is never contradicted by Dumbledore.
> snip
> 
> > I have no sense that Dumbledore planned a series
> of
> > enveloping moves, leading to inevitable check
> mate. He
> > was training his warrior, and when that training
> was
> > complete would send him out to combat and hope for
> the
> > best. HBP Am. ed. P.197-198:
> > "Sir," said Harry tentativly, "does what you're
> going
> > to tell me have anything to do with the prophecy?
> Will
> > it help me...survive?"
> > 
> > "It has a very great deal to do with the
> prophecy,"
> > said Dumbledore, as casually as if Harry had asked
> him
> > about the next day's weather, "and I certainly
> hope
> > that it will help you to survive." 
> > Larry
> 
> Kathy writes:
>      That Dumbledore had a plan and was
> orchestrating it is canon. 
> Notice how he does not make Harry any false promises
> here. He is also 
> using Harry, which in all honesty he has made plain
> to Harry, sort of.
> KJ

Larry now:

Again see above and cited posts. I clearly state
Dumbledore had a plan, and that plan was to buy time
while Harry learned what he needed to know so he could
do what only Harry could do. Nothing you have provided
hints otherwise.

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