*If* there is a piece of Voldemorts soul in Harry WAS Re: I KNOW WHAT SNAPE WANT

[M.Clifford]

No: HPFGUIDX 138675


> Richard wrote:
> > > I don't see support in canon for such an internal war.
> > > 
> > 
> > Valky:
> > 
> > Believe it or not, Richard. I do see support in canon for such an
> > internal war. 


> Richard here:
> 
> From what I've read, my impression is that though Dumbledore had 
> been seeking memories of Voldemort for some time, he did not know  
> that there were horcruxes involved until AFTER the CoS appearance of 
> Tom's diary.  Even had he strongly suspected such prior to that  
> episode, what canon is there to support that he believed such 
> sufficiently to  take the course of action he did BECAUSE he thought  
> there might be a fragment of Voldemort's soul in Harry?

Valky:
I concede there is a good point there. The Diary was IIRC indeed
*confirmation* of Voldemort using Horcruxes, but I concur with you in
saying that Dumbledore could only act on speculation before this.

But in OOtP Dumbledore does say to Harry, that when he saw the scar on
 Baby Harry's head that he knew it could mean something specific, and
it was upon that which he decided the *only* way to truly preserve 
Harry was to invoke a further protection from Lily's sacrifice and
place him within the 'circle' of her bloodline. He also says that
perhaps noone but him *knew* just how much danger Harry was in. 
Dumbledore goes on to say that he knew also the scar was an indication
of a 'connection' forged between Harry and Voldemort.
What is most clear to me is that this set of 'clues' from Dumbledore
don't make a whole lot of sense on their own. It is certain that at
least one more point should be on the list before it adds up to
something tangible. We don't have that one thing, and I am not all tht
attached to the piece of Voldemorts soul in Harry hypothesis, it could
be just that the connection could aid Voldemort in locating Harry.
However, I will point out that adding this one thing (LV soul in
Harry) to the list does complete *a* picture. I don't mind at all if
it's the right one or wrong one, just that even if Dumbledore was
acting on a hunch when proposing what the scar meant he had some
knowledge to be going on with, so it's still a complete picture.


 
> Richard:
> A linguistic point that may be important: a horcrux is an object 
> that by use of a spell contains a fragment of a soul.  The horcrux 
> is not the fragment of soul itself ... or that's the way I read it.

Valky:
Harry Horcrux fits this picture, thanks to Dumbledores silver
instruments confirming that whatever is going on is/was still "in
essence divided".




> Richard:  
> Further, the danger I see in using a living thing as a horcrux is 
> the mortality of the living thing itself.  Such a horcrux is not 
> protected against death by the presence of the alien soul fragment 
> that we know of, and cna get itself into all manner of danger on its 
> own.  In the case of a human horcrux, the danger is even greater 
> during a war wherein such a vessel may fall mortal victim to EITHER 
> sides forces, as happened to one of the Death Eaters during the 
> Battle of the Tower: killed by "friendly" hex.

Valky:
I agree, which is more or less a reason why Voldemort would be
particularly concerned about Harry's health if Harry was a Horcrux.
There is no question in my mind that *if* Harry is a Horcrux it is
only through accidental means, and only because Voldemort wanted Lily
for a horcrux, not Harry. I absolutely believe that Voldemort would
not want another Horcrux in the line of fire, like the Diary. 
He would want it protected well, it would need to be equipped with
defenses of its own a well as, living or inanimate, Voldemort would
equip it also with his defenses. Even after this he would most likely
place his precious Horcrux in a locked parlour away from any
destructive forces. Again a Horcrux who is a popular and powerful
witch, further endowed with his powers and either secured in his
quarters (probably intended to be Hogwarts) or otherwise *always* by
his side foots the bill. It is fairly clear that Voldemort doesn't
risk himself unnecessarily, he has his servants for that, so I would
assume that he planned to conquer the world by destroying the only
threat known to him (Harry), then sit himself on a throne while his
DE's did the rest. A King needs a worthy Queen, and Lily most
definitely proved herself his match when she screwed it all up for
him. *If* Harry is a Horcrux, IMHO, these things follow and they are
consistent with canon, so I don't feel any need to doubt them absolutely.



> Richard:
> I doubt that the Dursleys would treat Harry abysmally as they have  
> if they really feared that a very hostile, alien fragment of a soul 
> might suddenly pop out and attack one and all.  Treat him with kid 
> gloves, or even fire-place tongs, sure, and probably not with great 
> personal tenderness, but certainly not with wanton neglect and 
> discrimination!  What I see happening is the Dursley's believing  
> that they are stuck with this "freak," his aunt thinking Voldemort  
> dead, and behaving accordingly, given their low character and 
> prejudices.

Valky:
Again you have me conceding an excellent point Richard. I agree that
the Dursley's wouldn't sit with this, and wouldn't mistreat Harry if
they knew. 

If *they* knew. But I don't think that *they* know. I am dead certain
that *only* Petunia knows, and sshe lives in permanenet regret of that
day she "bitterly, unwillingly" took Harry into her home. In HBP, we
see Dumbledore using a nt very nice kind of persuasion on the Head of
the Orphanage, he dupes her, he uses some sweetening, confuses her
mind a little and gets Tom to Hogwarts where he belongs. Defending
Harry was even more imperative than reaching Tom, so we can't
completely dismiss Dumbledore calling on all his resources to get this
bitter unwilling concession from Petunia, once he had it, he needed
only to tell Petunia, if you break it, we are all dead and you and
your family will probably go first because you're the *only* thing
that stands between Voldemort and this world, well actually the same
would have happened if you said No but you've said yes, so we all have
a chance now. Sorry to bear you all these bad tidings but now you have
chosen to seal our pact you *have to* keep to it.   

Petunia could never tell this awful secret to her husband, and she
would be terrified to break the pact just in case the old man was as
good as his word. So she has lived horrifying fear for all these
years, knowing alone that there was no way out. After a while Petunia
might have begun to relax around Harry, he was after ll, so apparently
harmless, and Vernon was squashing the magic out of him, so maybe it
was all just a bad dream it seemed so long ago now after all. We see
Petunia not walking on eggshells around Harry when he is going on
eleven, and we are told that she was this way for a lot of Harry's
life before this, however Harry isn't remembering the first year or
two all that well he was only a baby then. She may have started to
forget by then and relaxed herself around him. One thing is certain,
*she* was *terrified* when Hogwarts returned to their lives and
reminded her that Dumbledore was real, and she has been terrified ever
since plus acting strangely every now and then.
Again *if* Harry is an unintentional Horcrux, many revelations follow
IMO. 


> Richard:
> The choice of a blood-based protection for Harry seems very obvious, 
> and not contradictory at all with my line of reasoning.  It was his 
> mother's love and sacrifice that protected Harry from Voldemort, and 
> evidently Dumbledore believed there were enduring residual effects 
> from this protection to be derived from contact with Harry's 
> remaining blood relative: Petunia.  Therefore, put him with Petunia, 
> tell her that this protection may not be necessary, but it will  
> exist so long as she accepts him into her home and as a member of  
> the family.  No contradiction, hole, flaw or anything to explain 
> away.

Valky:
I see something to be explained. Protection from what? that Dumbledore
couldn't give himself. Voldemort is scared of Dumbledore, and his
half-dead disembodied soul wasn't likely to risk being destroyed by DD
at the time when he didn't know what had actually saved him from
death, he had no powers except possession, and he went into hiding. 
The DE's too, could have been defended against by Dumbledore so it
can't be them.

I concede that it *may* have been Voldemorts disembodied Vapour!Mort
that DD was defending against, but it's also likely that DD could have
protected Harry by other means from V!M. This is not the strongest
canon argument to the point, but it is still conceivable that what was
threatening Harry the most wasn't from outside of him, and thats why
his protection needed to be invoked from inside him.

> Richrd:
> I also don't see that a fragment of Voldemort in Harry would lead to 
> external Voldemort possessing Harry in a manner that would show  
> Harry what external Voldemort wanted him to see. 

Valky:
No I agree, it is more likely that some other connection is in play
here, a separate kind of magic placed deliberately on the intentional
*living* Horcrux so that they *could* see each others thoughts from a
distance. Voldemort seems to have placed this magic in Nagini, and
Harry too can see inside Nagini from a distance, so the connection
seems to be the same.  



> Richard:
> This is, of course, all speculation.  I just don't see it your way, 
> and will let JKR tell us the way it "really" is when she gets around 
> to it.  Just don't be disappointed if you are wrong ... I won't be  
> if I'm proven wrong.

Valky:
Agreed, I just enjoy the thrill of the ride myself, I have always
enjoyed the story as JKR tells it regardless of what I had previously
imagined was going to happen, and I always will.

;D

> 
>