Malice and Ulterior Motives

[Jen Reese]

No: HPFGUIDX 138765

Vmonte:	
> Throughout the novel Snape is repeatedly described as having 
> bat-like and spider-like qualities.  Bats are bloodsuckers, and 
> arachnids spin webs to entrap their prey, once caught they are
> sucked dry of their innards until only a husk remains.  These are
> the perfect descriptions for a man who has laid out webs of deceit
> all around him and uses those that he ensnares to achieve his 
> goals.  

Jen: I'm still not clear on what Snape's goals *are*! Voldemort 
pursues immortality, with a side-order of blood purification. 
Dumbledore pursues unity & freedom, putting all his eggs in the 
Harry-defeating-Voldemort basket. Harry is on his mission as the 
Chosen One, and seems pretty clear about what's next. Snape? 
Um...er...I guess his goal is defeating Voldemort. I'm not sure why, 
though. And boy would I like to know, because it would clear the air 
for Harry to get back to those Horcruxes.

Vmonte:
> Snape can easily lie to the entire Order of the Phoenix.  He 
> only had to fool one member.  With Dumbledore backing him, the
> other members blindly accepted Snape and everything he did without 
> question, wrongfully assuming that their all-knowing leader knew 
> best. I think that this is why J. K. Rowling makes a point for 
> Dumbledore to inform Harry that he makes mistakes. To banish the 
> notion that he is somehow more than just a man. Fooling Dumbledore
> could have been as easy as tugging on his heartstrings – The Dark 
> Lord, however, is another matter. 

Jen: Very, very good point that many of the Order members trusted 
Snape only because Dumbledore did. I think their trust was not 
inspired due to a belief Dumbledore was all-knowing, though. They 
were in the middle of a war when Snape returned, no one could be 
trusted including family members. The Order's faith was more likely 
based on Dumbledore's 'prodigious abilities', including the skill to 
determine if someone is trustworthy. 

Dumbledore doesn't suffer fools. A sad story would not be enough to 
endanger the lives of everyone at Hogwarts, the Order and society in 
general if he had reservations about Snape. 

This is hard to connect, but I'm going to try. Snape asked Bella if 
she really believed he fooled the most accomplished Legilimens in 
the world by telling falsehoods to Voldemort. Snape said he must 
have given 'satisfactory answers' or he wouldn't be sitting there. 
Now I think Snape *does* believe he hoodwinked Voldemort due to his 
superb Occlumency skills, and he is so, so wrong. The only reason 
he's still alive is because he's extremely useful to Voldemort. He's 
the only DE placed inside Hogwarts next to Dumbledore. Invaluable.

Vmonte:
> Never one to pass up an opportunity to "toot his own horn" Snape
> implies that he has the power to lie to the face of the Dark
> Lord.  This also applies to Dumbledore; if Snape can utter 
> falsehoods to Voldemort you could also argue that he can lie to
> Dumbledore.  

Jen: I sort of addressed this above, but wanted to add the point 
that a few meetings attempting to convince Voldemort of his loyalty 
is nothing like almost daily interaction with Dumbledore for 15+ 
years. And while Dumbeldore states he trusts Severus Snape, he's 
also quite aware of his weaknesses, thus denying him the DADA job. 

vmonte:
> I think it no mistake that Snape lives at Spinner's End.  The 
> imagery speaks for itself.  However, titling the 
> Chapter "Spinner's End" evokes a dual meaning: The end of the
> Spinner – The end of the web.  It is in this chapter that Snape
> makes the Unbreakable Vow with Narcissa.

Jen: Hey, maybe so...I actually read that title to mean the end of 
spinning a story in the political sense. Either one has the same 
meaning for the plot: Snape must choose, he can't continue to play 
both sides, the UV forces his hand and he agrees to his hand being 
forced.

Vmonte:  
> Snape's hand twitches and he pauses.  His hesitancy shows he
> understands that he may regret this decision.  But he was backed 
> into a corner.  Showing his intentions to be anything other than
> for the Dark Lord and the protection of his own, especially in
> front of Bellatrix would certainly have meant his death.  

Jen: Now this part I can't agree with. Bella is out of favor with 
the Dark Lord. Narcissa has no clout because of Lucius' mistakes. 
Neither of the women are supposed to be there talking to Snape to 
begin with, according to Narcissa. Narcissa strokes Snape's ego with 
all the many ways he's the Dark Lord's favorite and when the DE's 
defer to him on the tower, it appears he does have some power in the 
ranks.  So what were the women holding over his head? Not much. 
*They* should have been worried he would turn them into Voldemort 
for treason. The UV wasn't completed, he could have turned the 
tables on them and thrown them out, saying he was going to report 
them to Voldemort.

The only way I can see Snape could have died by not accepting the 
vow is if the women were simply doing the dirty work for Voldemort. 
He wants DD dead and at first decides to punish Lucius by drafting 
Draco. Narcissa begs and pleads, blah, blah, and asks, "why not 
Severus instead, he's at Hogwarts?" Voldemort, already expecting 
Snape will be a necessary part of the plan because of his closeness 
to DD, decides to force Snape's hand and make him prove his loyalty. 
He grants Narcissa a way out for Draco, but demands she seal the 
deal with an UV.

<snipping>
Vmonte:
> To intentionally kill someone causes so much damage to your soul
> that it tears apart.  It would not be in Dumbledore's character to
> ask this of Snape. Dumbledore's been trying to keep Snape away 
> from the Defense Against the Dark Arts position for years because
> of his fear that it would tempt Snape back to the dark side.  It
> doesn't seem very likely that Dumbledore would risk Snape's mortal
> soul.  He trusted and protected a man who kills him in cold 
> blood.  

Jen: I'm really torn on this one. Dumbledore proved in OOTP that he 
believes the good of the community outweighs any one individual, 
including himself. I really believe Dumbledore trusted Snape to do 
the right thing until the very end: Save Draco, get the DE's and 
Fenrir the hell away from Hogwarts, and keep Harry from harm. Those 
three things would be more important to Dumbledore than his own life.

*But*, the big but, DD has much reverence for the power of love and 
an untarnished soul. You can't enjoy the next great adventure 
without them, I'd imagine. So no, I don't believe DD was pleading 
with Snape to AK him. And that's where I always run into a brick 
wall<g>. 

The only thing I feel certain about is Snape *did* get the DE's away 
from Hogwarts and he kept Harry from being severely hurt or killed. 
Snape did what Dumbledore would have wanted, in the end, possibly 
saving many lives at the expense of his own soul.

The Horcrux questions I'll leave for someone else! Thanks, Vivian, 
you really made me think about a few things tonight. 

Jen