[HPforGrownups] Re: Malice and Ulterior Motives

[Lawrence Carlin]

No: HPFGUIDX 138767

--- Jen Reese <stevejjen at earthlink.net> wrote:


> Vmonte:
> > Snape can easily lie to the entire Order of the
> Phoenix.  He 
> > only had to fool one member.  With Dumbledore
> backing him, the
> > other members blindly accepted Snape and
> everything he did without 
> > question, wrongfully assuming that their
> all-knowing leader knew 
> > best.

Snip

> Jen Now:

 Very, very good point that many of the Order
> members trusted 
> Snape only because Dumbledore did. I think their
> trust was not 
> inspired due to a belief Dumbledore was all-knowing,
> though. They 
> were in the middle of a war when Snape returned, no
> one could be 
> trusted including family members. The Order's faith
> was more likely 
> based on Dumbledore's 'prodigious abilities',
> including the skill to 
> determine if someone is trustworthy. 
> 
Snip

> This is hard to connect, but I'm going to try. Snape
> asked Bella if 
> she really believed he fooled the most accomplished
> Legilimens in 
> the world by telling falsehoods to Voldemort. Snape
> said he must 
> have given 'satisfactory answers' or he wouldn't be
> sitting there. 
> Now I think Snape *does* believe he hoodwinked
> Voldemort due to his 
> superb Occlumency skills, and he is so, so wrong.
> The only reason 
> he's still alive is because he's extremely useful to
> Voldemort. He's 
> the only DE placed inside Hogwarts next to
> Dumbledore. Invaluable.


Larry now:

Jen, I don't follow this at all. If Voldemort believed
Snape to be lying, he would no longer view Snape as a
DE. As far as I can tell, the qualifications for
status as a DE are unswerving and unquestioning
loyalty to Voldemort; it is a true cult of
personality. Loyalty to another would seem to
disqualify one from membership in good standing. And
we all know that there is only one way out of that
little society. There is no way I can reconcile a
living Snape and a Voldemort aware of his lies.

Either Snape did fool Voldemort, and is loyal to
Dumbledore, or he simply told Voldemort the truth,
hence there would be no lie to detect.


Snip




> Vmonte:
> > To intentionally kill someone causes so much
> damage to your soul
> > that it tears apart.  It would not be in
> Dumbledore's character to
> > ask this of Snape. Dumbledore's been trying to
> keep Snape away 
> > from the Defense Against the Dark Arts position
> for years because
> > of his fear that it would tempt Snape back to the
> dark side.  It
> > doesn't seem very likely that Dumbledore would
> risk Snape's mortal
> > soul.  He trusted and protected a man who kills
> him in cold 
> > blood.  
> 
> Jen: I'm really torn on this one. Dumbledore proved
> in OOTP that he 
> believes the good of the community outweighs any one
> individual, 
> including himself. 


Larry now:

Really? Didn't Dumbledore in OOTP confess to Harry
that by not fully informing Harry of the whole and
entire truth he put the larger community at risk?

Jen now:

I really believe Dumbledore
> trusted Snape to do 
> the right thing until the very end: Save Draco, get
> the DE's and 
> Fenrir the hell away from Hogwarts, and keep Harry
> from harm. Those 
> three things would be more important to Dumbledore
> than his own life.
> 
> *But*, the big but, DD has much reverence for the
> power of love and 
> an untarnished soul. You can't enjoy the next great
> adventure 
> without them, I'd imagine. So no, I don't believe DD
> was pleading 
> with Snape to AK him. And that's where I always run
> into a brick 
> wall<g>. 
> 
> The only thing I feel certain about is Snape *did*
> get the DE's away 
> from Hogwarts and he kept Harry from being severely
> hurt or killed. 
> Snape did what Dumbledore would have wanted, in the
> end, possibly 
> saving many lives at the expense of his own soul.

> Jen


Larry now

Jen, I think you are trying to square a circle here.
Dumbledore would never have wanted someone, anyone, to
do anything at the expence of their soul.
I quote from a previous post here 138237:


Dumbledore states clearly that to kill, to take a life
unjustifiably, forever splits the soul; damaging or
destroying it irrepairably and irretrievably. I cannot
understand how we can have gotten to know Dumbledore
as we have and believe for a second that he would
sacrifice a human soul for any reason.

snip

Dumbledore has also said that Voldemort trusts no one,
there is no inner circle. Voldemort is the only chess
master here, it is his 
utterly ruthless willingness to
sacrifice any one or anything to get what he wants
that marks him as the Dark Lord. For Dumbledore to
sacrifice a soul, any soul, would be to have him use
the means of the enemy., putting him on the road to
becoming the enemy.

Remember, it is our choices that makes us who we are.
And if we choose to act as the Dark Lord, we will
become as the Dark Lord. A choice Dumbledore would
never make, and a path he would never follow.

Larry


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